Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[Dr. Strangelove]

So, if Donald Trump had issued the mandate for all to receive "his" vaccines, our progressive folks here would be rooting him on, yes?

Also, in the space of less than a year, healthcare workers who refuse the vax have gone from being "heroes" to being "scum, worthy of losing their jobs".

"Vax, or you're fired". Sounds like a Trump mini-series.

Unlike state and local govts, there's no precedent for a nationwide, every citizen is required to be vaccinated, program. And it's doubtful the President can legally order one. Biden's said that any company with federal contracts has to vaccinate its employees, and he probably has the authority to do that. But if you refuse and quit your job (or get fired), he can't order the cops to your door, hold you down, and shoot you up.

[iam416]

We've talked about it before but in theory the govt can impose mandates at local and state levels. But it's also judged on a disease by disease basis. Individual Freedom vs. Public Health. Lots and lots of public universities require students and staff to get MMR shots or prove you have immunity. And that's because measles, along with other diseases like smallpox, have been established as enough of a public menace to deprive you of your individual liberty. Genuine religious and medical exceptions always apply.

Is there a point where judges might reevaluate the state's ability to impose covid mandates once the threat is passed? Probably. It'll become more like how the flu shot is viewed. But for at least the time being the courts will generally side with public health authorities. See the lawsuit the Indiana U students brought. They lost at every level and the Supreme Court slammed the door in their face.

Even with the flu shot, I know certain hospitals that require employees to get them. I don't know if state-run facilities are allowed to do that or not.

That's surprisingly well said.

I would add that the very unique thing about Covid is how age-dependent the outcomes are. The data is pretty clear that an UNVACCINATED 30-yr old is far safer than a VACCINATED 70-yr old. The data is pretty clear that kids under 12 are at virtually no risk. So, let's be entirely clear here -- the mask mandates and vaccine mandates are requiring actions by people who are fundamentally not a risk so as to protect an at risk cohort. And, for that matter, it's fundamentally what's been going on the entire process -- starting with the Lockdowns -- the folks at little to zero risk get fucked for the people who are at risk. And, of course, there's still the fact that you can go get vaccinated and feel pretty safe.

[iam416]

Unlike state and local govts, there's no precedent for a nationwide, every citizen is required to be vaccinated, program. And it's doubtful the President can legally order one. Biden's said that any company with federal contracts has to vaccinate its employees, and he probably has the authority to do that. But if you refuse and quit your job (or get fired), he can't order the cops to your door, hold you down, and shoot you up.

Biden has, obviously also proposed that OSHA pass a regulation that is national. He's not exaclty moving swiftly on this -- perhaps realized what a terrible idea it is and, for that matter, thati's almost certainly unconstitutional.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Biden has, obviously also proposed that OSHA pass a regulation that is national. He's not exaclty moving swiftly on this -- perhaps realized what a terrible idea it is and, for that matter, thati's almost certainly unconstitutional.

Much like "we're changing border policy without the legally mandatory review", he's either barking out executive orders with little to no intention of seeing them through, or he's simply incompetent. Pick your poison!

[THE_WIZARD_]

I seriously doubt Chairman Brandon knows what the Constitution is...or if he does...if he cares...

[Hannibal]

A mandatory jab makes some sense if there is a legitimately demonstrated public health benefit. With the jab in question, there isn't.

[iam416]

To add to the mandatory vaccines vs Constitutional rights discussion, the Court analyzes infringement of rights under different standards depending, e.g., on how important or central the right is to the Constitution. Even within the same "right" they will analyze laws different based on this idea -- e.g., commercial speech regulations are analyzed under a lesser standard than political speech regulations.

Basically there's two key standards which you may have heard of -- (1) Rational Basis; and (2) Strict Scrutiny. The former is applies to lesser rights and simply asks whether the Gov't has some good reason for the law. The law still requires at least some sort of finding to support the prohibition, but it's an extremely deferential standard. The latter asks if there is an extremely good reason for the law and if that law is narrowly tailored to infringe rights no more than necessary. This is a very difficult standard to meet.

Vaccine mandates easily pass the rational basis test. There is some basis for the laws. Whether you agree or disagree with them, almost everyone would have to admit that the government could come up with at least some plausible justification for them.

Vaccine mandates MAY pass the strict scrutiny test, too, but I'm less certain of that. Here the court will really look at ALL the facts -- not just whether at least some fact supports the regulation. They will also look at how broad the law is. For example, I think the fact that these mandates don't make an exception for people who already have had Covid would be hugely problematic.

The vaccine case law is fairly sparse. So, I'm not exactly sure how the Court would framework their analysis. But, the foregoing is a way to think about it -- and I think it's also how you see the arguments pro/con breaking down. The pro-mandaters tend to have no interest in taking into account the complete picture -- there's a good enough reason for it and that's that. Rational basis. The anti-mandaters without admitting it, implicitly acknowledge there's a reason to do it, but then proceed to say the balance of evidence doesn't justify the instrusion. That's a Strict scrutiny analysis.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Stop trying to act smart.

[crashcourse]

administration has completely shut the door on medical exemptions. you try to write one of and you'll have a state board looking at suspending your license

MY DIL works at blue cross 7 mos pregnant with twins. shes freaking beacuase blue cross is gonna fire unless she gets it. He OB doctor said she should get the vaccine but again the argument what good is the vaccine for those under 40--only reason is to protct those over 40. like to see the study data pout on vaccinations and birth porblems for those who got vaccinated but no study exists.

[Obi-Jon]

Stop trying to act smart.

Okay, here's something incredibly stupid offered as condolences to the Powell family. Guess who?

"Wonderful to see Colin Powell, who made big mistakes on Iraq and famously, so-called weapons of mass destruction, be treated in death so beautifully by the Fake News Media. Hope that happens to me someday. He was a classic RINO, if even that, always being the first to attack other Republicans. He made plenty of mistakes, but anyway, may he rest in peace!"

[Hannibal]

"I like Generals who don't die"

[lineygoblue]

Okay, here's something incredibly stupid offered as condolences to the Powell family. Guess who?

"Wonderful to see Colin Powell, who made big mistakes on Iraq and famously, so-called weapons of mass destruction, be treated in death so beautifully by the Fake News Media. Hope that happens to me someday. He was a classic RINO, if even that, always being the first to attack other Republicans. He made plenty of mistakes, but anyway, may he rest in peace!"

Maxine Waters?

[Dr. Strangelove]

And coincidentally just in the past hour the Supreme Court told another group NO. This time Maine healthcare workers.

https://wgme.com/news/local/us-supreme-court-declines-to-stop-maine-covid-19-vaccine-mandate

[Hannibal]

And coincidentally just in the past hour the Supreme Court told another group NO. This time Maine healthcare workers.

https://wgme.com/news/local/us-supre...accine-mandate

No surprise. The Supreme Court majority is five Mitt Romneys.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Okay, here's something incredibly stupid offered as condolences to the Powell family. Guess who?

"Wonderful to see Colin Powell, who made big mistakes on Iraq and famously, so-called weapons of mass destruction, be treated in death so beautifully by the Fake News Media. Hope that happens to me someday. He was a classic RINO, if even that, always being the first to attack other Republicans. He made plenty of mistakes, but anyway, may he rest in peace!"

He's on quite a tear today Jon. By noon he was calling himself the only man capable of preventing America's complete destruction. Always enjoyable to see someone set themselves up as the one true defender of American history and culture and then get basic facts, the kind you know by Junior High, completely wrong. Like so: