Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[lineygoblue]

At that time, the Trump vaccine was Clorox and other non-curatives. Back when Trump had someone who was a Fox talking head and read x-rays as his infectious disease czar.

People need to take politics out of the equation. Get the vaccination. Trump recently referred to all the vaccines collectively as the "Trump vaccine" (in Alabama). Fine. If he wants to claim credit, have at it. I'll call all the current viable vaccines the Trump Vaccine if it gets people to get vaccinated.

I don't care what color you are. Get vaccinated so you don't infect others.

Come on, Jon. The biggest gripes from Dems came when Trump started talking about Operation Warp Speed. You know this. They went in front of every microphone and camera that was pushed in front of them to express their opposition to "rushing" thru an "untested and unproven" vaccine. He wasn't pushing bleach water.

And I agree that politics needs to be taken out of the picture. Had this been done from the beginning, I believe Vax rates would be much higher. Dems share blame for low vax rates. Period.

[Kapture1]

The anti-vaxers cry of "Freedom!" and "Individual liberty!" hold no water. At the turn of the previous century, the very same issues were addressed by the Supreme Court in regards to small pox vaccinations. Reference the 1905 Jacobson v. Massachusetts ruling where part of the ruling stated "Real liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own (liberty), whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."

You can't be super spreaders infecting others. Get your damn vaccination.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/197/11

sound like 0bama's Sec of Education

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For everyone else still paying attention.... The desire to control people isn't new. Freedom and Liberty is.

[Jeff Buchanan]

I said I was dropping this but this is rather worthy, un-politicized COVID news: After the last two weeks of news from Israel that their public health experts believed a booster was needed based on data they had been collecting and then started delivering them to the entire population, seems that multiple and credible authorities on the virus are questioning the study. This isn't unusual. Scientists never agree on early findings and are rightfully skeptical. We often see it as undue delays when there is clamoring to "do something" ....... the inherent risk in such clamoring. The word is already on the street though. Hard to trun that around with more and better information.

The questions about the study's hypothesis - vaccine immunity wanes - is that the study design is weak and the data could be interpreted in other ways to demonstrate no, it doesn't. It will at some point but 8 months isn't it and announcing it is premature. There's also legit concern, as I had warned days ago, that such study result announcements like this tend to erroneously support vaccine refuseniks arguments to not get vaxed. The worst possible outcome right now.

Here's something else that's been frequently stated but gets drowned out with seeming more scary or important stuff: When you receive the flu vaccine, it DOES NOT prevent you from acquiring influenza. You may feel achy and tired if you get it but you won't get really sick from it and that is particularly true of people who have weakened immune systems. Flu vaccines are not designed to eliminate seasonal flu. They are designed to reduce the PH impact.

While Kapture is correct that those who have received a vaccination for COVID can still spread SARS2 virions in respiratory droplets, the potential for that is significantly reduced. Let me explain: Let's look at that in the context of the flu vaccines. First, variants of the H1N1 virus (flu) that appear every year, have an R(0) of under 2. The Delta variant of SARS2 has an R(0) = 5 and as high as 9X that of flu. While the CFR of flu is around 0.1%, in the US SARS2 CFR is estimated at 3.1% (it may be lower than that - time will tell)

Why the huge difference in both of these metrics? In terms of transmissibility, the typical viral load (virions) in aerosollized SARS2 spread by one person is highly variable, This led to the designation of events as "super spreader events." Not the person per se but that some people have large amounts of virions in expelled respirations and will infect the entire gathering of people esposed to that person. That does not happen with flu and it also does not happen in individuals who have received the SARS2 vaccine. On average, this is why R(0) of SARS 2 Delta is so much greater than flu.

On serious illness and death. The higher the viral load that infected persons with SARS2 have, the worse the outcome. This hypothesis has been rigorously studied and at this point, support for it is strong. This explains why, in circumstances where local viral prevalence is high, where unvaccinated super spreader events are more likely to occur, more viral load = more serious illness and more deaths. Flu doesn't perform like that - yes people die from it but not at anywhere near the CFR of SARS2. Delta is making deaths more problematic out of the sheer math of it.

Finally, vaccination, it is thought, reduces viral load in both flu and SARS2. At this point, it's a known for flu, a hypothesis for SRAS but, to virologists, 2+2 equals 4 - all the time. The hypothesis is defendable.

To put this as clearly as I know how, when you get vaccinated, if you become re-infected, and there are instances of that running somewhere between 5-10% of those partially or fully vaccinated, studies reveal that the viral load from oropharyngeal samples of these subjects contain significantly fewer virions than those that are unvacinated. Thus, the incontrovertible math, based on what is already known (the facts), is on the side of this cohort having both less serous symptoms and less liklihood they will spread the virus to someone else. This isn't debatable.

Sure, you can still get infected after vaccination but if you do, the chance of you spreading it with the few virions in your expirations, the chance of those numbers working in favor of more suffering, more "do something" mitigation measures that restrict our mobility and social interaction is greatly reduced.

[Obi-Jon]

Come on, Jon. The biggest gripes from Dems came when Trump started talking about Operation Warp Speed. You know this. They went in front of every microphone and camera that was pushed in front of them to express their opposition to "rushing" thru an "untested and unproven" vaccine. He wasn't pushing bleach water.

And I agree that politics needs to be taken out of the picture. Had this been done from the beginning, I believe Vax rates would be much higher. Dems share blame for low vax rates. Period.

The Repubs and Dems share equal blame. Should the Dems have jumped on Trump's hydroxochloroqine (sic) bandwagon? Operation Warp Speed was one of the few things Trump (reluctantly) did right. Have you listened to the Woodward tapes where Trump admitted he downplayed the virus's danger because he was a herd immunity proponent? Let 'em all catch it and we'll eventually get herd immunity. The death rate would have been far worse had we followed our so-called leader. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Did you read that 1905 Supreme Court ruing? Same conversation we have today. It's my right not to get the small pox/covid vaccine. No its not.


Politics be damned. People have the freedom to roll up their sleeves and save someone else's life. Be a hero, not a zero.

[Hannibal]

You're not saving anyone else's life if you get vaccinated. You're saving your own life. This is especially true for a disease that has a 99+% survival rate for anyone who is up and about regularly in schools or in the work force.

[lineygoblue]

So what will be next to be forced on people? A mark that you must have in order to buy or sell? Under penalty of death?

he rights of the government are more important than the rights of the people. That's the belief that is being suggested here.

And again, I've been vaxed, and when my doctor advises me to get a booster, I will. But I'm not for forced vaccination. I don't care if the USSC votes 9-0 that its "right". The founders of this country were willing to die to preserve individual liberty. I know, that will get me mocked big time in here, but its the truth.

[CGVT]

*sigh*

[Mike]

Look, man. A certain number of people will not be moved to get vaccinated no matter how much data is available or how many people beg and plead with them. This is the world as it is. The question then becomes, how do we choose to proceed? For me personally, I have a pre-pandemic mindset and don't fear going anywhere without a mask (except for Michigan Stadium but that's for other reasons). If it becomes a choice between going back to the summer of 2020 with the sports and entertainment industry essentially banned or having the ability to enjoy things again like in summer 2021, I'm taking the latter every time, consequences be damned. A year and a half of this shit was plenty. It's not going away. It never will. I advise people to take steps to reduce your risk of having serious problems from Covid. But if you don't, I don't really give a shit. Time to let the chips fall where they may.

[Kapture1]

Politics be damned. People have the freedom to roll up their sleeves and save someone else's life. Be a hero, not a zero.

That other person should get the vaccine then, if they are at risk.

Because If I get vaccinated, I can still kill them by passing them the Virus.


Me getting the vaccine doesn't protect YOU, it protects me and me only, or so we are told.

[iam416]

Look, man. A certain number of people will not be moved to get vaccinated no matter how much data is available or how many people beg and plead with them. This is the world as it is. The question then becomes, how do we choose to proceed? For me personally, I have a pre-pandemic mindset and don't fear going anywhere without a mask (except for Michigan Stadium but that's for other reasons). If it becomes a choice between going back to the summer of 2020 with the sports and entertainment industry essentially banned or having the ability to enjoy things again like in summer 2021, I'm taking the latter every time, consequences be damned. A year and a half of this shit was plenty. It's not going away. It never will. I advise people to take steps to reduce your risk of having serious problems from Covid. But if you don't, I don't really give a shit. Time to let the chips fall where they may.

EFZ

[iam416]

This is the world I live in: I'm vaccinated -- I ain't getting really sick.

You're getting Covid antibodies one way or the other. I'd rather get them in a way that pretty much ensures I won't see a hospital.

[lineygoblue]

From my understanding, even though I am vaccinated, I can still get pretty sick with Covid. And further, if I understand Jeff's posts with my pea-brain mentality, it sounds like a fully vaccinated person can infect another vaccinated person. Or, am I wrong in that statement? Now, it appears that if a vaccinated person infects another vaccinated person, that the infection has a good chance of not being a serious illness. So, all the vaccine is doing, is hopefully guarding me from being seriously ill. Infection is still possible, and some say we're all going to get it no matter what.

Again, I'm fully vaccinated, and I will get a booster when/if my doctor advises me to. I am not an anti-vaxer.

But I understand where folks who are resisting the vaccine are coming from. Some are still resisting due to Trump-hate, and "refuse to get the Trump vaccine". Some don't trust the CDC, the WHO, and the Fauci bunch, who have been all over the map with their opinions. Some are way out there, saying that the vaccines have a metallic substance in them that inter-acts with 5G transmissions, and allows the government to track you. Yes, that one is out there.

Seems to me that folks should consult their physician and act accordingly. But, that's just me.

[Hannibal]

The most vocal anti-vaxxers that I have seen are pro-Trumpers. The statistics on vaccine hesitancy by race are, therefore, a little surprising. But perhaps there is a "silent majority" of people who don't want to get the vaccine, but not for political reasons.

[Obi-Jon]

....The founders of this country were willing to die to preserve individual liberty. I know, that will get me mocked big time in here, but its the truth.

I would never mock you for that belief, you know me better than that. This whole discussion is proof that common sense isn't always common.

[Hannibal]

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They are rubbing it in worse than Talent on the last Sunday of November.