Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[hack]

We don?t need to create a Centrist Party, as if it were even possible.

What we need is a change in what already exists; the Left and Right fringes to break off the GOP and Democratic Party, leaving behind more rational Center Right and Center Left entities who can nominate more "normal" candidates and aren't pulled so far apart that they cannot function together. Structurally speaking, you can already see the fault lines.

I'm all for reasonable people, but you can't expect them to stay reasonable in an unreasonable setting. You have to fix the setting.

[entropy]

Bill was middle left.. I'm not sure how you qualify Hillary when she supports what will get her elected and changes her opinions day to day depending upon the audience and city. Her past suggests she's more left (based upon who she read and supported earlier in her career). I'd say she's willingly going in that direction. I'd also argue if her name was Smith, she wouldn't be nominated. It's not her beliefs, but her name.

but my comments were more about the parties in general.. even at the state and local level. Extremism gets the energy and the attention. It wasn't meant to be an absolute statement as money, personality, etc impact elections, but I don't think either party puts focus on the middle. I still think they get the extremes energized and they get their candidate.

[iam416]

What we need is a change in what already exists; the Left and Right fringes to break off the GOP and Democratic Party, leaving behind more rational Center Right and Center Left entities who can nominate more "normal" candidates and aren't pulled so far apart that they cannot function together. Structurally speaking, you can already see the fault lines.

If the Trump nomination proves more than a temper tantrum, one could see the Rs coalescing in the middle. But, I sort of doubt that.

It would seem the progressives are on their way to running the D party. We'll see how much they can foist on Hillary at the convention. But, regardless, their momentum is going take a big hit in 2018 when they get blasted out of the Senate. Maybe they pin that on Hillary, argue for being MORE progressive and nominate Warren in 2020.

Anyway, IMO I see the "center" -- as it currently exists -- as far more likely occupied the Rs than the Ds. I think it far more likely that the progressives will eventually win out in the Ds than Tea Party folks do with the Rs.

[entropy]

We don?t need to create a Centrist Party, as if it were even possible.

What we need is a change in what already exists; the Left and Right fringes to break off the GOP and Democratic Party, leaving behind more rational Center Right and Center Left entities who can nominate more "normal" candidates and aren't pulled so far apart that they cannot function together. Structurally speaking, you can already see the fault lines.

won't happen... as long as the money continues, the parties will focus on the items that generate the passion. And that is not about improving the country, but rather labeling the opposition.

[hack]

Bill was middle left.. I'm not sure how you qualify Hillary when she supports what will get her elected and changes her opinions day to day depending upon the audience and city.

They are the same. They believe in nussing, Lebowski. Bill moved right at a time when there was not even any cause to question the dominant economic approach. Hillary is moving left at a time when there is great cause, and many eloquent voices arguing for a different economic approach.

[Wild Hoss]

I'm all for reasonable people, but you can't expect them to stay reasonable in an unreasonable setting. You have to fix the setting.

A significant fracturing of the current party model will accomplish that.

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[Wild Hoss]

You have two candidates who are not extremists. They're just bad candidates. You can complain all day long about that. But it's not like it's Sanders vs Rand Paul or even Lying Ted Cruz (heh).

I dunno bud...DT is out there in orbit on some issues imo.

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[iam416]

Bill was middle left.. I'm not sure how you qualify Hillary when she supports what will get her elected and changes her opinions day to day depending upon the audience and city. Her past suggests she's more left (based upon who she read and supported earlier in her career). I'd say she's willingly going in that direction. I'd also argue if her name was Smith, she wouldn't be nominated. It's not her beliefs, but her name.

The operative word is Bill was Middle Left. What was middle left ain't that any more. It's Middle Right. Welfare Reform? Crime Bill? Hillary is Middle Left NOW.

but my comments were more about the parties in general.. even at the state and local level. Extremism gets the energy and the attention. It wasn't meant to be an absolute statement as money, personality, etc impact elections, but I don't think either party puts focus on the middle. I still think they get the extremes energized and they get their candidate.

So, there's campaigning and governing, right. I'm more or less w/ you on campaigning. I don't see it much w/ governing. Even in Ohio, which is R-dominated, it's mostly middle right legislation with some red meat abortion stuff. But it's not like they're shutting government down.

I'm sure Kansas/Nebraska are both big R states ... and I know Kansas is a bit batshit on a couple issues, but I can't speak to how the states operate generally. I can't speak to whether they operate consistent with their constituency (which I'm guessing is middle right to right right) or if they are more extreme. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[entropy]

Bill was middle left.. I'm not sure how you qualify Hillary when she supports what will get her elected and changes her opinions day to day depending upon the audience and city.

They are the same. They believe in nussing, Lebowski. Bill moved right at a time when there was not even any cause to question the dominant economic approach. Hillary is moving left at a time when there is great cause, and many eloquent voices arguing for a different economic approach.

Hillary was a big fan of progressive ideas in college.. that really hasn't changed. I'd argue the opposite. She supported bill and left is where she finds comfort. But really.. not sure anyone knows what she believes. She is more Bush than Obama when it comes to the ME.

[hack]

I hope so, but am fearful. I think a lot more of the outcomes are explained by the deep state, and things that were set in stone years ago and will not be changed by the elected reps who are cycled through the system. Most of them understand not to touch those things, and the few that are willing find it hard to last and amass enough power. I think the parties can change without the deep state changing.

[iam416]

Hoss

I dunno bud...DT is out there in orbit on some issues imo.

Yeah....from the same post you were quoting:

And shit, Trump is arguably middle-middle. He's way right on some shit and middle left on others

[entropy]

The operative word is Bill was Middle Left. What was middle left ain't that any more. It's Middle Right. Welfare Reform? Crime Bill? Hillary is Middle Left NOW.

While I'm not moving the spectrum, you have... basic difference in our points. Also, calling a person middle left doesn't mean they don't have some middle right ideas. Bill did when it came to crime. In fact, more than a few people felt he hurt black America more than any other president.

also agree about campaigning vs governing... I think the tug of war prevents a lot of things from happening (and maybe a good thing).

[iam416]

While I'm not moving the spectrum, you have... basic difference in our points. Also, calling a person middle left doesn't mean they don't have some middle right ideas. Bill did when it came to crime. In fact, more than a few people felt he hurt black America more than any other president.

Well, all due respect, IMO, the political spectrum is a relative thing and ought to be assessed contemporaneously. Having AAs serve in segregated units used to be a liberal idea. Now it's racist. I'll assess things in the here and now.

As for Clinton, yeah -- Tahiti Coates doesn't like it, but whatever. Crime has been declining for two decades and is at something like an all-time low. Policing/laws matter. But, eh...whatever...if folks in crime-ridden communities want to increase crime, what do I care.

[entropy]

you have to hold it constant for comparisons.. you have to put a stake in the ground. If you want to use Hillary, that is fine. I've kept it constant with Bill. It's also the point where I feel the latest significant shift in politics occurred..... to my earlier point. And yes, they have happened before, but 1892 isn't as relevant to us today.

[iam416]

This is the most interesting thing I read today: http://www.pacificlegal.org/Releases...6-white-3-1491

More or less, an AA student is suing St. Louis schools because the city came up with a program to address segregation that encouraged white kids from the county to transfer to city schools and black kids from the city to transfer to country schools. But the transfer program does not permit the transfer if the races are switched. Here an AA wants to transfer from the County to City.

Their attorney:

“This discrimination isn’t just unacceptable, it is flat-out unconstitutional. No matter how benign the goals of this policy might have seemed decades ago, as an instrument of desegregation, race can no longer be the driving force in determining where St. Louis-area children may go to school. There can be no excuse in the 21st century for denying any student equal opportunity without regard to race. Under our Constitution, the schools system cannot say to La’Shieka White and her son, ‘You are black, therefore, no transfer for you.’”

The student's mother:

“This case is important for students of all races,” said La’Shieka White. “School policies should treat everyone the same, regardless of color. I was shocked, I was literally crying, when I learned that the guidelines would keep my son from transferring to the school he loves and where he’s doing great, and where all the teachers and administrators love him, because he is African-American. That’s not fair and that’s not what America is about. I am grateful to be working with Pacific Legal Foundation to bring an end to this policy, so no children will be taught that their race can disqualify them and hold them back.”

Preach on.