Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[Dr. Strangelove]

The soft bigotry of low expectations. Palestinians cannot be expected to act peacefully, but Israel must be held to a higher standard than any other. Even the main sources of the criticism -- US, France, UK, Belgium -- have and will never meet the standards Israel is expected to meet. Some of that even started in the late 60s when France and Belgium were still holding on to their African colonies. There is nothing more hypocritical on this planet than your typical pro-Palestinian Belgian. Often they don't even know what their own country did in the Congo.

Where do you stand on the settlements in the West Bank?

[hack]

Are progressives in the habit of blaming all Jews everywhere for when Israel commits unjust acts? Or even all Israelis? I don't doubt there are some. I just question your characterization that it's more the rule, rather than the exception.

I think it's broken-clock time. I find common cause with a lot of people who are horrified by what Israel does, but so damn many of them venture into excuse-making for the Palestinians. Their focus on the acts of one side and refusal to focus on the equivalent on the other is so extreme that it itself is a form of some sort of -ism.

[hack]

Where do you stand on the settlements in the West Bank?

Wrong and must go. The Israel I grew up with, and that the US forged a very strong alliance with, is long gone. A lot of people are working with facts that are decades-old on this one. The Golda Meirs and Yizhak Rabins were so damn different than Netanyaho and Lieberman today. Lieberman is an abhorrent human being.

But that doesn't change the fact that in some ways Israel is a purer democracy in some ways than any other country. Citizens can and have sued the IDF. In the wake of the Six-Day War Ha'aretz, the paper of record, said give it back. Israel manages to have a modern and sophisticated civil society and debate despite its geography. And that's with half the damn country brainwashed at yeshivas. So to me in ways Israel is up there with anything else in terms of human achievement toward a just society. In this country, Paris gets attacked and Americans can't handle that as well as Israelis can process rockets landing in their backyards. Go find the equivalent of B'tzelem anywhere else in the Middle East -- give it a try...

[hodgkal]

It's pretty hard to start an objective discussion of the Israel-Palestine issue. Passions run high on both sides and most minds remain closed to obvious facts, at least in my experience. The "anti-Semitic" card is a pretty potent weapon used by the Zionist establishment against people in this country who dare to take a critical look at the facts on this issue. They have an extensive Hasbara playbook and are ready to strike any time someone dares question the prevailing narrative.

There is an interesting article about Peter Beinart at the current Mondoweiss website and his struggle with being both a "member of the tribe" while also being willing to criticize obvious facts he learned from a visit to Hebron in the West Bank.

http://mondoweiss.net/2016/04/beinarts-jewish-double-bind-support-oppression-or-youre-out-of-the-family/

[iam416]

Are progressives in the habit of blaming all Jews everywhere for when Israel commits unjust acts?

I don't see how this is a relevant question....unless you're asserting conservatives (or other Americans) are in the habit of blaming all muslims everywhere Islamic terrorists.

Another rather nonresponsive comment.

I don't really care if you want to take issue with what Israel does. There's plenty to take issue with. But apparently you don't have inclination to acknowledge the two very different standards in this country that are applied to comments re jews and comments re muslims.

I don't really care which standard one wants to apply. But be fair.

[iam416]

The soft bigotry of low expectations. Palestinians cannot be expected to act peacefully, but Israel must be held to a higher standard than any other.

Quoted for 100% truth.

[hack]

Agreed, Doc. But the great thing is that the debate is actually happening. When guys like Chomsky and Dershowitz no longer matter -- which seems to be where things are eventually heading -- Beinart and some others will be excellent moderators of this discussion.

[hack]

unless you're asserting conservatives (or other Americans) are in the habit of blaming all muslims everywhere Islamic terrorists.

If you're looking for someone to assert that I'd be happy to do so...

[hack]

Do you have actual numbers on hate crimes talent to back that assertion from yesterday btw, talent? I'm surprised. Maybe it's that other groups are less likely to report them? Dunno. But that's very interesting and surprising. I know there's still plenty of anti-Semitism in teh country but on the other hand Bernie Sanders hardly ever gets called a Jew. Nobody's made his candidacy about his religion, and that is something to be proud of if you value a post-racial society. I wouldn't have guessed that most hate crimes are still directed at Jews.

[iam416]

On my phone - Google hate crimes jews snipes

I think it's 4x overall and 2x per capita re jews:Muslims

[hack]

I wonder if that's a matter of reporting. I remember talking to a Muslim lawyer in Detroit a few years back who said his rights-focused cases didn't quite explode after 9-11, b/c a lot of people just wanted to stay under the radar, but that the discrimination was there. Wrongful dismissal type of stuff. Not a direct indicator, but I'm sure you get the point.

[iam416]

It's a significant difference. That's a lot of wondering.

I wonder if media reporting and lack of media reporting affects public perception causing folks to wonder how the facts could be the facts.

[iam416]

FWIW, my number one takeaway from hate crime statistics is how few there are.

[SeattleLionsFan]

What are these comments about Jews that progressives are making? I can't remember a time I've heard a progressive make comments about the Jews. I have heard comments about Israel but not the Jewish faith.

[lineygoblue]

Since he asked me also...

Where do you stand on the settlements in the West Bank?

I think they stay until the Palestinians (Fatah, Hamas, et al) stop the overt and covert war against Israel.

By this I mean ending the rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel. The cessation of tunnel building from Gaza and Egyptian Sinai into Israel. The suicide bombing of Israeli civilians, etc. When a Anwar Sadat of the Palestinians says "enough", and makes real attempts to build peace with Israel, I say Israel can keep whatever settlements they want.

Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel, and the two nations haven't fired a shot in anger at each other in decades. Egypt the same thing. Israel has proven itself to be a reliable partner for peace, yet the Palestinians as a whole, seemingly have no desire for peace.

When Yasser Arafat came to Camp David to meet with Ehud Barak and President Clinton, Arafat was basically given everything he asked for, in turn for signing a peace treaty with Israel. He refused, because part of the deal was, that he would have to declare that Israel was allowed to exist... IN ARABIC. See, little known fact is, that Arafat told his people, that whenever he "spoke in the language of the infidels", they could ignore what he was saying. However, when he "spoke in the language of the prophet", they had to listen. He refused to acknowledge Israel's right to exist IN ARABIC, and went home .. and started the "intefada"

So, all stated, it seems to me that the Palestinians want war, more than they want peace. Their terms for peace have basically been that Israel surrender to their terms, and fold as a nation. IMO, that's why we are, where we are today.

Now I agree that Netanyahu is very hawkish in dealing with the Palestinians, but I don't see many doves among Palestinians.