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  • Re Trump voters (and Sanders voters), fundamentally it's about the perception that things are not fair or equal and THAT's to blame for your lot in life. Kevin Williamson of the National Review wrote a great piece about the "White Ghetto" awhile ago and then, recently, scorched them with a piece that has drawn some attention. He basically said that small, rural towns aren't hopping back to life. Your solution isn't raising tariffs or building a wall or raising the minimum wage or free college or whatever...your solution is to rent a fucking U-Haul and get the fuck out.

    David French, another NR writer (who detests Trump, FWIW), posted this yesterday:
    One of the most deeply-felt of impulses of our fallen human nature is to find a way to excuse or justify our own failings — or the failings and faults of people we know and like. When others sin, it’s because they’re evil or malicious. But when we sin, it’s because we were provoked. Or we’re angry. Or we’re desperate. Spouses always have reasons for their affairs. Thugs always have reasons for their punch.

    It’s the same in political discourse. We constantly engage in “heads I win, tales you lose” reasoning. If the other side fails, then we gleefully call it out. If our side fails, then we’ll find a reason why the other side is truly to blame. And when it comes to voting constituencies that “our side” needs to succeed, the temptation to whitewash can be overwhelming. “Our people” are great and noble. “Their people” are uninformed and greedy.

    I’m reminded of this temptation by the continuing, overwhelming response to Kevin Williamson’s magazine piece (subscription required) — and, to a lesser extent, my supporting post –decrying the passivity and self-destructiveness of many working-class white communities — a key part of the GOP base. Rather than engaging in actual argument (Who, after all, is going to deny the breakdown of families and the rise in drug and alcohol-related deaths? Who is going to defend the morality of these actions?), many critics are either calling Kevin an elitist (Kevin? Really?) or engaging in blame-shifting. It’s the establishment’s fault. It’s immigrants’ fault. It’s free trade.

    Let me stipulate — because I whole-heartedly agree — that the government and our so-called cultural “elite” have failed our nation badly. Not only have they failed, but they’ve done so in a way that makes it substantially harder for ordinary citizens to get ahead. Have you spent much time in your average public school? Have you tried to start a business lately? Have you seen the rising cost of college?

    But here’s the key point — we have mutual, unconditional responsibilities. At no point is anyone of any race justified — by stress, adversity, or others’ failings — to destroy themselves or their family. At the same time, at no point are those who are better off justified in turning their backs on the poor. Regardless of whether government succeeds or fails, people still have responsibilities — myself included. I have a God-given obligation to help those in need. Those in need have a God-given responsibility to do their best to help themselves.

    The truly insidious thing about the welfare state isn’t that it has robbed people of their agency — it hasn’t — but that its excesses and na?vet? have created a glide path of dependency. It’s made vice easier and virtue more challenging. But to state that truth doesn’t mean that vice isn’t still vice. It’s wrong to try to milk the disability system. It’s wrong to drink to excess. It’s wrong to give up on finding a job. It’s wrong to fracture families.

    If we can’t speak these truths, we’re lost. If we can’t call on our fellow citizens to live with greater determination and purpose, we’re lost. If we can’t live with determination and purpose ourselves, we’re lost. But the spirit of the age — and the temptation of every age — is to play the victim and to use that victim status to justify all manner of wrongful acts.

    I would suggest that if your first impulse on reading a piece that criticizes our own movement is not to evaluate the arguments themselves but instead to sputter, “But what about the Left? What about the government? What about black poverty?” then you are part of the problem. I’ve spilled countless barrels of ink (too many, possibly) talking about cultural and political issues on the other side of our nation’s political, religious, and racial divides, but if I won’t speak about the problems that plague our own movement and our own allies, that doesn’t make me brave or bold — it just makes me a partisan hack.

    We have citizens — black, white, and Hispanic – rejecting their responsibilities and their families by the tens of millions – often choosing pills, the bottle, or the needle over wives and husbands, sons and daughters. We have citizens wallowing in self-pity and anger despite having taken little initiative to improve their lives. A key aspect of helping those who are lost in substance abuse and self-pity is to call them to a better way.

    But it’s not enough just to speak — that’s cheap and easy — we also have to act. Embody the values you proclaim, preserve and protect your family, give sacrificially, mentor those who lack role models, and keep doing those things even when the government fails and evil seems to triumph. There is no adversity — short of death, of course — that can relieve us from responsibility.
    Last edited by iam416; March 17, 2016, 07:20 AM.
    Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
    Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by iam416 View Post
      Re Trump voters (and Sanders voters), fundamentally it's about the perception that things are not fair or equal and THAT's to blame for your lot in life
      Lumping the Trump voters in with the Sanders voters is moronic. The National Review has lost its collective mind.
      Last edited by Hannibal; March 17, 2016, 07:25 AM.

      Comment


      • Well, we disagree. I certainly find NR vastly less moronic than, say, Donald Trump. But, I guess that makes me moronic in your eyes. Such is life. The irony of your post right after my quote of French is worth it, though.
        Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
        Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

        Comment


        • He (and you) is making a broad generalizations that Trump voters are angry because they are failures in life and they need a scapegoat. It is a simpleton's explanation. I'd love to see some statistics on the unemployment rate/work force participation and average income of Sanders voters vs. Trump voters. I'd bet that they are miles apart. They are different phenomena.

          Also -- there's an absolutely massive difference between perceiving yourself to have been fucked over by capitalism and having been fucked over by really bad government policy or the government itself.
          Last edited by Hannibal; March 17, 2016, 07:39 AM.

          Comment


          • I actually don't know which group would be higher in what. It'd be interesting, though. I rather doubt your labeling of Sanders voters as unemployed with $100K in debt for a transgender degree is much more than a "simpleton" take, either. But, you know...

            I'm interested to here what you think drives Trump voters...with all the nuance you imply is there. In the mean time, I'll leave with French from the piece above:
            I would suggest that if your first impulse on reading a piece that criticizes our own movement is not to evaluate the arguments themselves but instead to sputter, “But what about the Left? What about the government? What about black poverty?” then you are part of the problem. I’ve spilled countless barrels of ink (too many, possibly) talking about cultural and political issues on the other side of our nation’s political, religious, and racial divides, but if I won’t speak about the problems that plague our own movement and our own allies, that doesn’t make me brave or bold — it just makes me a partisan hack.
            Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
            Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

            Comment


            • Trump's very scant policy details he has put forth hasn't offered much difference than the other Republican candidates. If you are somebody who has been screwed over by capitalism or the government he isn't going to help. A lot of it is warmed over Bushism. Slavish devotion to the Laffer curve isn't going to start suddenly working in year 37.

              Comment


              • Also -- there's an absolutely massive difference between perceiving yourself to have been fucked over by capitalism and having been fucked over by really bad government policy or the government itself.
                I missed this. Yes, your team is always actually fucked over; the other team is just perceiving it. I know the way politics works.

                I should note I think it incumbent on anyone that is actually serious about these things to take a real, hard look at what's driving the anger. I don't think "racist" works as an explanation for Trump voters. But I do think a perception of a double standard (the anti-PC stuff -- which I applaud) explains some Trump voters; I think that the perception that immigration/free trade have harmed communities explains some Trump voters; I think Obama explains some Trump voters. Some of those concerns strike me as legitimate; some of them bullshit.

                I loathe BLM, as I do almost any activist group -- because activist groups tend toward the narrative irrespective of facts. BUT, that doesn't mean I dismiss their anger. It strikes me that they probably have a point that should be addressed, though I almost certain it's far less insidious than they claim.

                I think Bernie Sanders' policies would be an unmitigated disaster. But, shit, there are millions of people backing him. Their anger is real. I refuse to dismiss them as socialists or dipshits -- though a number of them are. But WHY are they angry. This I need to think about more, but certainly if you were feeling the effects of the recession and saw the government spending billions to prop up Wall Street I could see you being pissed off.

                There's nuance everywhere and if you're going to demand it when it comes to Trump supporters, then you ought to give it when it comes to other large, organic groups/movements. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them. I disagree with Trump on a long list of things and with Sanders on nearly everything.
                Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
                Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

                Comment


                • Setting aside complex explanations of group motivation, I just can't believe I'm going to be stuck choosing between a pandering, protectionist with even less regard for the truth than most politicians, and someone who wants, among other things, make college "free" and fix the pay "gap"....good fucking lord...

                  The Rs would have had me this year.
                  Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
                  Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by iam416 View Post
                    I'm interested to here what you think drives Trump voters..:
                    Fundamentally?

                    1. Recognition that a welfare state and open borders can't coexist. Immigration is an economic issue that is incorrectly framed as a social issue (e.g. "YOUR A RACIST!!!!11!1)

                    2. Recognition you can't have a welfare state alongside endless expensive wars that nobody else helps you with.

                    3. Hatred of political correctness

                    America is now, for all intents and purposes, a welfare state. Whether you can even sustain a welfare state without immigration is highly questionable to me. With open borders, it is suicide.

                    Political correctness is a huge strategic advantage for the Democrats because it eliminates language that can be used to criticize them and their policies. Donald Trump is on the verge of destroying that advantage by demonstrating that you don't have to be afraid of political correctness because most people, even "moderates", hate it. But The National Review and The Republican Party have such an incurable case of Stockholm Syndrome that they can't see this.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by iam416 View Post
                      I missed this. Yes, your team is always actually fucked over; the other team is just perceiving it. I know the way politics works.
                      And sometimes your team is right and the other team is wrong.

                      If my company fails because society evolves away from its product naturally and someone else can deliver the same benefit cheaper, then I have no right to complain.

                      If my company fails because government policies directly destroyed it, I have a right to complain.

                      Do you really not see a difference between the two?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by iam416 View Post
                        Setting aside complex explanations of group motivation, I just can't believe I'm going to be stuck choosing between a pandering, protectionist with even less regard for the truth than most politicians, and someone who wants, among other things, make college "free" and fix the pay "gap"....good fucking lord...

                        The Rs would have had me this year.
                        You can't get too caught up in campaign promises, especially now. Whomever wins isn't going to get much done against the gridlock.

                        Putting one party in charge of all three branches, however slim the margins is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

                        Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

                        Comment


                        • I agree with your position on immigration/welfare. I don't, however, think that's a significant driver for Trump voters. JMO. As two separate issues, I'd agree, but I don't see as a dovetail driving Trump voters -- even if it's correct.

                          I still think, fundamentally, his pitch is aimed at people who aren't doing well. His slogan is clear. When I hear him speak, I hear, in part, jobs being lost overseas; jobs being lost to illegal immigrants; jobs going lots of place they shouldn't be going. I assume that plays well with his crowd. I assume, perhaps erroneously, that message is driving a lot of his support, along with his anti-PC stuff. To the extent you can make sense of a large group with a single explanation, I think the most best one is the one I offered. It obviously isn't nuanced, but I don't think it inaccurate.

                          I haven't been on here shitting on Trump or Trump supporters. I don't have any inclination to do so. My explanation may be wrong or, at a minimum, my effort to explain the actions of a massive group with a single explanation may be foolhardy. But it's not out of animus.
                          Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
                          Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

                          Comment


                          • Do you really not see a difference between the two?
                            I fully understand the difference between the two. If you want to argue that NAFTA and immigration have destroyed white working class, feel free. I disagree profoundly.

                            Frankly, Bernie has a far better argument when it comes to the devastating recession of 2008. Yeah, there's shitload of Federal Govt blame to go around, but Wall Street had some blood on its hands, too.

                            A post on the dreaded, "moronic" NR blog suggested that the timing of the financial crisis made it such that the response would be delayed. It happened when we already had nominees and were about to elect a President. Obama was able to parlay incumbency into 4 more years. Now the check is coming due. Now the anger of the recession has reached its boiling point. The author's point was that if it had happened in 2005 or 2006, then Trump/Sanders may have been the response 8 years ago.
                            Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
                            Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

                            Comment


                            • You can't get too caught up in campaign promises, especially now. Whomever wins isn't going to get much done against the gridlock.

                              Putting one party in charge of all three branches, however slim the margins is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
                              Well, yeah. But I'm not encouraged. Hopefully the Rs hold the House. I think they'll lose the Senate for 2 years and then win resoundingly in 2018. They're going to get drubbed in November, though.
                              Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
                              Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by froot loops View Post
                                Trump's very scant policy details he has put forth hasn't offered much difference than the other Republican candidates. If you are somebody who has been screwed over by capitalism or the government he isn't going to help. A lot of it is warmed over Bushism. Slavish devotion to the Laffer curve isn't going to start suddenly working in year 37.
                                Trump isn't taking much of a Laffer curve approach beyond cutting corporate taxes to bring offshore money back into the country. WRT to personal income taxes, etc, it's not much of an issue with Republicans nowadays.

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