Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[Whitley]

with regards to Tesla, where do you draw the line between non-violent civil disobedience and opinionated flaunting the law that can affect the public at large?

Did you have a flashback (like I did) back to the robber baron days of the industrial titans? I sure got the feeling that Tesla here is saying whatever is good for them must be good for the economy. Another couple questions came to mind as well.

1) If you are willing to move your factory because you can't open right this minute---then it is not really about the 45k of workers is it?

2) Why can't you wait until getting the okay? I mean really is there this pent up hunger for Tesla cars going that we have not heard? Is Tesla teetering on the brink so much that closing another couple of weeks is going to deep six the company?

[Hannibal]

WWI and WWII were at least Congressionally declared wars with years of public deliberation and buildup preceding them. The Constitution was followed properly in entering those. And I'm pretty sure that you were still allowed to go to church or to the beach during both of them. Heck, I'll bet that you could even get a haircut! But we did intern the Japanese "just to be safe", without any data or evidence. Just like we are doing everything now "just to be safe". I wonder how many schoolchildren's lives were used as justification to lock up the Japanese in internment camps. It's now universally regarded as one of the most appalling human rights violations to happen in our country since the Civil War, but since all races are locked up equally under Covid-19, I guess everyone's OK with this overstepping of power. Now you have states encouraging people to snitch on their neighbors for violating social distancing. You have business owners being arrested for operating their businesses and moms being arrested for arranging playdates for their kids. Covid-19 is the closest thing that the US has ever had to a literal police state. And all that it took was a picture showing a couple of curves and a few mathematical models predicting millions of deaths.

[Hannibal]

The body count for the Communism virus in the 20th Century was around 100 million or so. Stalin by himself murdered more people than the Spanish flu killed. I wonder if we should eliminate all free speech for Communists to save lives.

[iam416]

Yeah, the World Wars and corona aren't particularly comparable.

As for Tesla, I hope they leave California. I get the sense that getting squeezed by Alameda County (not the State) was the last straw in the regulatory fucktardedness that is California. I would get the fuck out of dodge. Hope they do.

As far as civil disobedience goes, it's dictated by one's moral compass. And in the larger sense, by society's moral compass. I'm fairly certain Tesla's decision is supported by a strong plurality. But the bottom line is that if you think it's a good law then arrest him. But, like the jailed salon operator in Texas, you better be sure you have public support.

[Hannibal]

What law is Tesla even flaunting at this point? What laws were passed in response to Covid-19? Same question for Michigan, Ohio, etc.

[Dr. Strangelove]

What states are under complete and total lockdown orders and have not begun lifting any restrictions? ARE there any?? I just read yesterday that New York State will probably lift most restrictions for much of upstate before the end of the month.

In WWII, at least if you lived on a coast, you could be arrested for turning lights on after dark. The government rationed all your food. Travel was tightly restricted (because of gas rationing) unless by train. The government commandeered auto plants and for 5 years there weren't any new cars to even buy. The government opened up and read all your mail. And obviously we locked up anyone Asian.

There's no comparison between the civil liberties we surrendered to fight WWII and what we've done the past 2 months.

[Dr. Strangelove]

And yeah the State of California said Tesla could open. It was Alameda County that imposed additional restrictions (specifics I do not know)

[Dr. Strangelove]

Rand Paul left the hearing and told reporters that he believes New York City would have had the same amount of deaths if they had simply done nothing and let the disease do whatever.

[Jeff Buchanan]

And yeah the State of California said Tesla could open. It was Alameda County that imposed additional restrictions (specifics I do not know)

...... as a slight strawman I offer this: Cali's Governor Newsom has, IMO, deferred to county officials in the matters of re-opening to the detriment of a cohesive, understandable plan state wide. I hold Desantis in FL to the same account. Both of them have created confusion and uncertainty among their respective state citizenry by letting local officials decide.

I get the fed deferring to the governors on a state-by-state basis. State to County officials? No. Creates a situation where you have to know what side of the street your favorite grocery store or restaurant is on to know whether a mask is required inside those establishments or not. The S. FL state and federal courts are swamped with law suits over the patch-work re-opening regulations. Crazy.

Wiz, congrats on reopening. YOU HAVE NO CONCERN FOR THE LIVES of the people of Nebraska!!! ..... fucker.

Man, I get observing discomfort among your dine-in customers. Here in GA - perhaps a reopening policy less restrictive than any - liability issues for certain businesses and a terrorized consumer with his fears and paranoia augmented by the constant drone of doom and gloom from the media, are keeping restaurants closed and retail hesitantly opening. Followers are on the sidelines watching. Leaders are risking it.

I suspect that, as we found early on in this mess that officialdom appeared to be mostly FOS when it comes to risk assessment and models, we will learn that re-opening isn't the morass of "needless death" it is thought to be right now.

Case in point: there's a news item today that "prompts concern among health officials" about Germany, that had a growth rate of less than 1 on a couple of measures last week, but shockingly it is now up to 1.1.

Of course it's up. Start to ease mitigation and containment measures to afford a presently moribund economy to rebound, get people back to work and earning money, and you'll get more folks out and about potentially becoming infected. Let's look at that:

Germany reportedly is doing the best testing and tracing in the world maybe only bested by a comparable SK or much less populated countries where it's easier to test and trace everyone, e.g. Singapore or Hong Kong. So, a new case is identified by this excellent testing process. He/She gets quarantined and his contacts get traced, warned and monitored ...... the country moves forward economically and socially until such time as it can be determined that care resources might be at risk.

What are the chances 100 more persons that became infected due to more mobility that precipitates more social contact are? Well, it depends on the age stratification and underlying diseases of those 100 folks. Leaving that out of the equation for the moment. 5% of all cases are likely to result in serious illness so that's only 5 people that pressure the HC system. Now lets add age into the equation. 50% of serious COVID-19 cases occur in people over 55 - let's call that 2.5 of the five then. I can therefor make a case that only 2.5 folks out of the 100 newly infected people might put the German HC system under pressure. By my figuring, about 30% of all people are at risk due to underlying medical conditions. Worst case. The math gets a little trickier but we get to 30 then 15. Worst case = 15 out of 100. Pfffft.

You can do this math with as many multiples of 100 as you choose and I can pretty much guarantee you that Germany's HC system will be fine, Germany's children will be fine and most importantly, Germany's economy will start to rebound.

[Jeff Buchanan]

This came through my news feeds as not pay-walled. I posted a link to a technical discussion from Erin Bromage titled, "Know Your Risks" that did a good job of explaining why restaurants and gyms can be higher risk environments if you are going inside to dine or work-out.

This link to an article titled, Safety Advice for Reopening: How to Reduce Your Risks as Coronavirus Lockdowns Ease - As businesses reopen, we asked public-health experts for guidance on venturing out, does the same as the Bromage article but it is more understandable as it quotes health experts but doesn't deal with the technical side of things.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/safety-...S%3D1589307909

I think it's worth pointing out that you can go out of your house safely and resume some semblance of normalcy. It's not going to be normal, it shouldn't be and you have to take precautions and hope businesses that are open are doing the same.

Gold's Gym near me, a place I used to have a membership, is open. They appear to be doing one group class - some kind of station to station boot-camp thing spread out in the main gym area. An open gym with free weights and machines is dicey unless you are really careful with spacing, touching surfaces and not touching your face while working out. While Golds is probably doing the best they can to sanitize, these gyms really have to be thorough and I question how thorough they can actually be.

LA Fitness, where I now have a membership remains closed. Their latest info says we want to do our part to stop the spread of the virus - implying they don't think they can keep you safe if you come inside their gym to work out or do a group fitness class. My wife goes to Crunch and it is open. She doesn't use weights or machines. She does classes of all types - a lot of them each week, normally. Crunch is starting a Zumba class this Friday - it will not be in the usual smaller studio but rather spread out in the larger gym area. My wife is thinking about it. Right now she does her routines on line. If she goes to a Zumba class, she'll wear a mask. She is more risk-averse than I am. We respect each other's positions on this.

I mentioned earlier that I had done 5 indoor cycling classes in a studio I have used before since returning to ATL from FTL on April 29th. After I read the Bromage article I decided to wear a mask. It is a cycling mask and has two exhalation/inhalation valves on the front of it. I did that for the first time yesterday. It wasn't great, Bob. Two things made it so: (1) At high respiratory volume and frequency rates, the top of the mask, which has a good tight fit, collapsed and impaired air inhalation (felt like it to me) but not exhalation. (2) after about 30 minutes of work, it got wet. Pretty sure I could make it work by keeping my work effort a bit lower - hard to do for me.

The amount of virus particles in the air X time of exposure is a good way to assess risk. Things that reduce the concentration of virus particles you might inhale are masks, distancing, smaller numbers of people in larger and larger space, type of space ventilation and cooling/de-humidification equipment present and operating (recirculating - not great v. non-re-circulation - better or fresh air outside - best), avoid touching surfaces like re-usable menus, touch pads that aren't yours or things like pens that the virus can live on (there's more, you know them), use hand sanitizer when you're in a higher risk environment and DON'T TOUCH YOUR FACE!

FFS you say. Quit talking about this here. Well, it's part of my rant intended to make folks here not fear going outside. You can also say FFS, GTFO, or you can safely get out of your basement by paying attention because this kind of behavior is going to be required for probably a year, maybe longer depending on the development of decent therapeutics and/or vaccines. Do you want to hibernate for that long? No? Then get used to it. Alternatively, you can stay locked up in your house and stock up on spam and hand sanitizer and if you do that because you're paying too much attention to the fear mongering on the news, have a good life.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Skimmed the SC case transcripts. If I had to guess Trump's more likely to lose the Vance case out of NY. Nearly all the conservative judges seemed uncomfortable accepting the claims of temporary presidential immunity that Sekulow was pushing. In the earlier House committee case they were much tougher on the House lawyer in questioning though some concerns expressed there too. Could see that one falling on ideological lines with Roberts writing a very, very narrow opinion that's inapplicable to just about any future disputes. Says the House filed too many subpoenas and imposed too much burden, or something wishy-washy like that, and avoids touching anything regarding the principle at issue.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Wiz, congrats on reopening. YOU HAVE NO CONCERN FOR THE LIVES of the people of Nebraska!!! ..... fucker.

I'm a selfish prick...as you well know.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Entire Cal State system says they will be online courses only in the Fall. That's 23 schools. Including Fresno State, San Diego State, and San Jose State. Seems pretty early to be deciding that already. No one seems sure if there might still be CFB games without students on campus. I saw a rumor yesterday that the Pac12 is thinking about canceling all the non-conference games.

[Whitley]

In Michigan

Lake Superior State will hold in person classes BUT they will start the fall semester on August 10. That means Thanksgiving break will mark the end of the semester and they will not be back until mid January (maybe Feb)

Central Michigan will have in person classes in the fall.

Western Michigan has cut 6 million out of its athletic budget but has not cut any sports (they are at 16 and you need at least 15 to be division 1).

[lineygoblue]

In Michigan

Lake Superior State will hold in person classes BUT they will start the fall semester on August 10. That means Thanksgiving break will mark the end of the semester and they will not be back until mid January (maybe Feb)

Central Michigan will have in person classes in the fall.

Western Michigan has cut 6 million out of its athletic budget but has not cut any sports (they are at 16 and you need at least 15 to be division 1).

The UP hasn't had the break out of cases like lower Michigan has. They still have a couple counties up there that have no cases at all. So that's probably why LSSU feels fairly safe in opening campus. I'm glad to see it.

I think I may have read the same article as Whitley regarding CMU and WMU. I also saw that U-M is exploring all possibilities in opening campus in the fall. I hope they do, and I hope its very successful with no 'rebound' infections. It would boost the morale of this state immensely.

I think just seeing Michigan Stadium filled to capacity because IT IS SAFE TO DO SO would be great for my morale. I wouldn't even care what the outcome of the game is.