Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[froot loops]

[iam416]

Could you imagine that clown in a real court of law?

You don't really have to. He was an US Attorney and made his name prosecuting the mafia and winning. He's quite the accomplished trial lawyer.

Also, I ask this periodically, but I need refreshed. Where is the anti-collusion provision in the criminal statutes? I know there's conspiracy and I know there's election fraud and I know there's conspiracy to commit election fraud. But, I've always been curious what the actual elements of the collusion crime are.

[hack]

If you were actually curious about this you wouldn't be asking here.

[iam416]

Fair. No #GentryProg here has the faintest clue. But COLLUSION!!!!

Rhetorical questions, fortunately, don't rely on the #GentryProgs here for answers.

[Dr. Strangelove]

You don't really have to. He was an US Attorney and made his name prosecuting the mafia and winning. He's quite the accomplished trial lawyer.

Also, I ask this periodically, but I need refreshed. Where is the anti-collusion provision in the criminal statutes? I know there's conspiracy and I know there's election fraud and I know there's conspiracy to commit election fraud. But, I've always been curious what the actual elements of the collusion crime are.

I think we're all aware no one will be going to jail for "collusion". They could get indicted for lying to the FBI about collusion, but not specifically for the act. It's a 'political' crime if it happened. Although In Manafort's case, it's alongside many, many other legitimate crimes.

Surely you would acknowledge that Team Trump's story on collusion keeps 'evolving', to put it kindly?

[Dr. Strangelove]

Trump's approval below 40% and shows clearly that the shutdown has hurt him. Significantly, he's losing real support among his base for the first time. Suburban white men are now a net negative group for him.

EDIT: Sorry, I misread this. He's net negative with "suburban men", not suburban white men

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/17/68553...lips-with-base

[iam416]

It's a 'political' crime if it happened. Although In Manafort's case, it's alongside many, many other legitimate crimes.

Correct. Which is sort of why I never really got the Mueller investigation. I mean, yes, Manafort and surely others belong in jail, but you don't go with Mueller for that. You go with Mueller for the President. It'll be interesting to see if there was any actual, meaningful crimes committed by PDJT. But I generally view "political" "crimes" to be settled by the ballot box. And that score was partially settled in 2018 and will be fully settled in 2020.

Surely you would acknowledge that Team Trump's story on collusion keeps 'evolving', to put it kindly?

I don't pay attention, but given PDJT's complete and total inability to stay on anything by the most basic message -- and even that's questionable -- I have no doubt the messaging has changed.

[hack]

I told you in the immediate aftermath of the public request for Russia to come up with Hillary's missing emails. It was clear then, and, for those of you that needed help, it grows more clear by the day.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Correct. Which is sort of why I never really got the Mueller investigation. I mean, yes, Manafort and surely others belong in jail, but you don't go with Mueller for that. You go with Mueller for the President. It'll be interesting to see if there was any actual, meaningful crimes committed by PDJT. But I generally view "political" "crimes" to be settled by the ballot box. And that score was partially settled in 2018 and will be fully settled in 2020.



I don't pay attention, but given PDJT's complete and total inability to stay on anything by the most basic message -- and even that's questionable -- I have no doubt the messaging has changed.

You'd have to ask Rod Rosenstein to be sure but handing it to Mueller was a direct consequence of Trump firing Comey. That action created a bipartisan appetite for a Special Counsel where there wasn't one before. I think people like Lindsey Graham flippped almost overnight from not thinking a SC was necessary to finding one acceptable. No matter what justification Trump gave for that firing (He was unfair to Hillary!), whether spoken or unspoken, nearly everyone believed he fired Comey in an attempt to end the Russia investigation. And if he was willing to fire the head of the FBI just to stop an investigation he probably wouldn't have thought twice about firing a Deputy Attorney General or whomever was leading the collusion probe if not Mueller. Mueller has at least some independence from political interference.

[iam416]

EDIT: Sorry, I misread this. He's net negative with "suburban men", not suburban white men

You've invalidated your entire existence. Your original point is factually wrong and thus every point you've ever made must so be.

But, yes. PDJT is killing the Rs in the suburbs. That's why he has no chance (IMO) to win in 2020. Of course, your boy VDH published a "thinkpiece" today saying his chances are better than we think. What is interesting to me is whether the Ds can consolidate their gains. My gut feeling is that they will end up way too far left and lose a lot of their gains by the middle of the 2020s. But, who knows. If they are able to consolidate then they control the House and Presidency for the foreseeable future.

[iam416]

You'd have to ask Rod Rosenstein to be sure but handing it to Mueller was a direct consequence of Trump firing Comey.

Fair enough, I guess. I still find the entire sequence remarkable bootstrapping, but such is politics in the US.

[froot loops]

Yeah collusion has been the wrong term, that term has been used more often in labor disputes. Most notably MLB got caught colluding against the players to hold down salaries.

It's more conspiracy than anything, somebody used the word collusion early and it stuck.

[iam416]

My Crim Law professor represented the Players in that collusion case (amongst others). He did a lunch talk on it. Fascinating. E.g., the Lenny Dykstra deposition featured Dykstra giving testimony with a mouthful of chaw and spitting on the floor.

Tim Raines was the posterboy for that case.

[iam416]

It's more conspiracy than anything, somebody used the word collusion early and it stuck.

I think it was quite intentional. Conspiracy has definable criminal elements. Collusion, in this context, is perfectly amorphous such that it can cover criminal and non-criminal activity and requires only some sort of bare minimum contact to allow for mostly vapid "connect the dot" "proofs."

[hack]

The actions were treasonous -- the adjective, for now, is all we can use. There will be other crimes that have been committed for which they can be tried, but the big picture here is that all that's left is to see if the US justice system can reach the obvious conclusion and imprison multiple people for the rest of their lives so they can no longer communicate with those people to whom they gave state secrets. This is required if state security is a thing to be taken seriously. If not, then let's move to a debate about why we spend so much money on it, and whether that should continue.