Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[hack]

Everybody already knows that. It was Urban Meyer's grandfather from Hebron who had the idea.

[hack]

Yes but geez, the Saudis are more responsible for ISIS than Turkey is. And good luck finding someone in DC willing to criticize Saudi Arabia.

See upthread for that point.

[Jeff Buchanan]

The Guardian article is compelling.

I've been to Turkey twice traveling from Istanbul to tourist attractions. What I found most interesting was the open dislike of Erdogan expressed by locals who, if you asked about it, were quite openly critical of him. There is a constant and interesting tension between him and the Turkish Army. An Army that is very impressive.

I'm not an expert on Turkish politics but I do understand it is complicated by opposing
agendas. The Guardian article is not the first time I have heard it said that Erdogan may have been indirectly behind the killings in Ankarra.

The Kurds are another complex matter and I'm not entirely certain that unleashing them to fight ISL would not destabilize Turkey after any victories they would probably achieve. I think, in the long run, Erdogan is not going to survive and a stable transition is better than one brought about by a Kurdish rebellion. I don't know though in the current circumstances where the iron is hot ...... . Your thoughts, Hack?

[entropy]

I hope ISIS continues to make strategic errors and keeps getting other countries involved. It is one thing to outlast the resolve of one country. Another to outlast many.


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[Da Geezer]

Interesting reading tonight.

I'm sure most of you have seen the soccer match in Turkey and the moment of silence to pay respect to those murdered in Paris:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/turkish-soccer-fans-chant-allahu-akbar-paris-attacks-remembrance/

The Arab "street" concerns me. It seems to me that ISIL has more support than we may be realizing. I agree with Hack about Erdogan. There are more journalists in prison, per capita, in Turkey than in China. Erdogan is Muslim Brotherhood and Obama has proven in Egypt that the Muslim Brotherhood is his personal preference as an ally in the Middle East. Further, the Turkish military, I believe the largest in number in NATO, is very good. I fear a backsliding, propelled by Erdogan, into a dictatorship, and eventually into a theocratic state. That would be the biggest geopolitical disaster since Iran in 1979.

But Turkey is a convenient excuse, and that is all it is, for the US not to arm the 2nd best military in the region (after Israel), the Kurds. Here are a group of fighters that have kicked anyone ass that attacked them for the last 25 years or so. They were a vital ally of the Coalition in Iraq, and a state of Kurdistan would take a large chunk of land from Iran. They will willingly be our boots on the ground, but we insist on trying to work with the Iraqi army. Iran is working with Russia, and providing Putin with his boots on the ground.

And I cannot understand where the antisemitism comes from in this forum. And in Europe for that matter. At least in Europe there is some correlation with the rise in the number of Muslims in the population. That makes some sense. But we are talking about 7 million people surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims who want to destroy Israel as an act of fealty to their religion. And now we have an American political class that has negotiated a deal with Iran that guaranties a nuclear exchange in our children's lifetime. This isn't about oil. This is about a religion that would love to destroy Israel because they are non-believers. And the same holds for the US because we too are non-believers.

[Da Geezer]

Interesting reading tonight.

I'm sure most of you have seen the soccer match in Turkey and the moment of silence to pay respect to those murdered in Paris:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/turkish-soccer-fans-chant-allahu-akbar-paris-attacks-remembrance/

The Arab "street" concerns me. It seems to me that ISIL has more support than we may be realizing. I agree with Hack about Erdogan. There are more journalists in prison, per capita, in Turkey than in China. Erdogan is Muslim Brotherhood and Obama has proven in Egypt that the Muslim Brotherhood is his personal preference as an ally in the Middle East. Further, the Turkish military, I believe the largest in number in NATO, is very good.
I fear a backsliding, propelled by Erdogan, into a dictatorship, and eventually into a theocratic state. That would be the biggest geopolitical disaster since Iran in 1979.

But Turkey is a convenient excuse, and that is all it is, for the US not to arm the 2nd best military in the region (after Israel), the Kurds. Here are a group of fighters that have kicked anyone ass that attacked them for the last 25 years or so. They were a vital ally of the Coalition in Iraq, and a state of Kurdistan would take a large chunk of land from Iran. They will willingly be our boots on the ground, but we insist on trying to work with the Iraqi army. Iran is working with Russia, and providing Putin with his boots on the ground.

And I cannot understand where the antisemitism comes from in this forum. And in Europe for that matter. At least in Europe there is some correlation with the rise in the number of Muslims in the population. That makes some sense. But we are talking about 7 million people surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims who want to destroy Israel as an act of fealty to their religion. And now we have an American political class that has negotiated a deal with Iran that guaranties a nuclear exchange in our children's lifetime.
This isn't about oil. This is about a religion that would love to destroy Israel because they are non-believers. And the same holds for the US because we too are non-believers.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Interesting reading tonight.

I'm sure most of you have seen the soccer match in Turkey and the moment of silence to pay respect to those murdered in Paris:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/turkish-soccer-fans-chant-allahu-akbar-paris-attacks-remembrance/

The Arab "street" concerns me. It seems to me that ISIL has more support than we may be realizing. I agree with Hack about Erdogan. There are more journalists in prison, per capita, in Turkey than in China. Erdogan is Muslim Brotherhood and Obama has proven in Egypt that the Muslim Brotherhood is his personal preference as an ally in the Middle East. Further, the Turkish military, I believe the largest in number in NATO, is very good. I fear a backsliding, propelled by Erdogan, into a dictatorship, and eventually into a theocratic state. That would be the biggest geopolitical disaster since Iran in 1979.

But Turkey is a convenient excuse, and that is all it is, for the US not to arm the 2nd best military in the region (after Israel), the Kurds. Here are a group of fighters that have kicked anyone ass that attacked them for the last 25 years or so. They were a vital ally of the Coalition in Iraq, and a state of Kurdistan would take a large chunk of land from Iran. They will willingly be our boots on the ground, but we insist on trying to work with the Iraqi army. Iran is working with Russia, and providing Putin with his boots on the ground.

And I cannot understand where the antisemitism comes from in this forum. And in Europe for that matter. At least in Europe there is some correlation with the rise in the number of Muslims in the population. That makes some sense. But we are talking about 7 million people surrounded by hundreds of millions of Muslims who want to destroy Israel as an act of fealty to their religion. And now we have an American political class that has negotiated a deal with Iran that guaranties a nuclear exchange in our children's lifetime. This isn't about oil. This is about a religion that would love to destroy Israel because they are non-believers. And the same holds for the US because we too are non-believers.

People always throw out the 'anti-semitism' card every time you're not 100% fully supportive of everything Israel does.

There's a ton of people IN ISRAEL who think Netanyahu is an asshole. The Israeli media is more critical of him than the American media are!

[iam416]

People always throw out the 'anti-semitism' card every time you're not 100% fully supportive of everything Israel does

Indeed. And man, you ought to try being remotely critical of anything African-American these days.

Speaking of which, is their a certain irony to the fact that people most likely to take great pains to make sure we don't stereotype Muslims are also super quick with the "white privilege" line? Well, I find it ironic. They're correct, of course, that we shouldn't stereotype Muslims.

Finally, I absolutely think we need to accept refugees. I mean, it's the least we can fucking do after 'we' drew a line in the sand then did nothing. Didn't intervene. Didn't create safe zones. Did nothing. Left the Syrians to their own little civil war. A conservative writer finds it remarkably brazen for the President to chastise folks who don't want to help the people he, well, didn't want to help.

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/11/17/president-obamas-cynical-refugee-ploy/

[iam416]

The Russians aren't into things like freedom, liberty, fairness, justice and all that nice sounding shit but are much more likely to simply kill everyone they are worried about and ask questions later. I hope there actions sort-of stay on our side and in the world's best interests but as long as they seem to be interested in killing everyone even remotely associated with bombing one of their passenger jets, I'm good.

There's something to this. America has progressed so far down the classical liberalism road that they can't really engage in the shit that needs to be done (this isn't a bad thing, btw). We catch shit when a drone strike goes awry and there's any collateral damage. We need people who don't care about collateral damage. The Russians may be the best option at the moment...they were certainly bombing the shit out of American-"supported" rebels. But in the end, the best way to go for that region is dictator. Friendly would be great, but if he's going to bring these Medieval thugs to heel, I don't really care. That's the truly bad and entirely predicted outcome of unseating Saddam and (then subsequently vacating post haste after 2008 ).

[Ghengis Jon]

America has progressed so far down the classical conservative road that they can't really engage in the shit that needs to be done (this isn't a bad thing, btw). Might makes right, do as I tell you bitch, money always trumps human life, and other distinctly conservative attitudes have brought about a lot of the world's problems. But that type of arrogance is certainly not limited to American policy makers.

I'm reminded about an incident that happened during the Reagan administration in Lebanon, 1985. 4 Russian diplomats were taken hostage by Hezbollah. One of them was murdered in captivity. Less than one month later, a participating (low level) Hezbollah leader and his nephew were killed, cut into a couple of dozen pieces, and then left on the door step of a family member. Attached to the garbage bags was a note saying the Russian diplomats will be released within 48 hours or ONLY family members of Hezbollah members will suffer the same fate every day until the diplomats were released. Amazing, the Russians were freed shortly thereafter. Whether it was the slice-n-dice or the threat of a major financial backer of Hezbollah (2nd only to Iran) cutting off funds is up for debate.

Bottom line is, when dealing with mindless fanatics, you're only option is to kill them. Nothing else will stop them. They won't quit, they wouldn't relent, they won't change. And therein lies the problem. Do you morally tried to 'win' with the least amount of damage and loss of life, or do you eradicate vermin without remorse? Then you slide down the slippery slope of what constitutes vermin and who gets to decide.

Within the Koran, there is their "Book of Revelations". It talks of the end of days and that Islam will fight the forces of "Rome" (read the West). The Battle will be fought in what is now Syria. What you are seeing today tries to fulfill that prophecy. Daesh needs foriegn (western) armies in Syria. They are trying everything in their power to draw boots on the ground in. Beheading videos, that didn't work. Mass executions like in Palmyra, that didn't work. Attempted genocide against the Yaz, that didn't work. Torture killings like suffered by the Jordanian pilot, that didn't work. Now mass killings in 'crusader' countries is the attempt to induce deployment of armies, whether it be Russian and Egyptian planes brought down, French civilians massacred, whatever.

I think that the airstrikes are having an effect, but it won't win by itself. Daesh is finding its easy to take territory, much harder to administer without the use of terror. And terror breeds pushback.

How to win? Since the people who haven't fled Syria won't take up arms against Daesh, it makes it difficult. Millions have fled Syria, just plain giving up. Men did not send their families away and remain to fight for their homeland. One must deal with Daesh on their own level. Without morality, without remorse, and without compassion.

I'd fulfill their wish for foriegn armies. I'd build a huge camp in the desert, outside of artillery/mortar range and drop 100,000 soldiers. Make sure there is some rugged terrain nearby where Daesh can amass their forces. Then taunt them with what they fear the most. We're here to destroy your religion. We're here for your women. We'll be marching out and you can't stop us. We're coming out a week from Tuesday and your forces will run away like the pig eating, goat fucking, heretics that Allah is ashamed of, that you are. Here's your "End Of Days" and you pussies won't even show up much less run away. Blah, blah, blah.

Then nuke the bastards. Use neutron weapons that Carter banned to keep the fallout to a minimum. Whats left will have to deal with all the local peoples that they've pissed off. Game over. Not nice, but the only way to 'win' without taking 30 years.

[hack]

I think there's little to no chance of Turkey becoming a theocracy. The country is far more anti-Europe, after getting rejected (unfairly at the time) for EU membership. Erdogan has relentlessly exploited cultural divisions and stirred up shit. Turks have become highly anti-western as a result, in particular in Istanbul. Erdogan is interested in his own pockets and power more than he is the religion. He is a mini-Putin. Foreign policy will be calibrated to make the country appear to its citizens as powerful on a global level. Turks enjoy too much freedom to become an Arab-style theocracy. Even pious people, upon seeing what that might require, wouldn't want it. IMO.

[hack]

Provocative post, Jon. It's often said that what would get the attention of people in that region is a massive and overwhelming show of force. Thinking only of traditional military solutions, a nuke is probably the only way, I agree. -Of course there is also no justification for using nukes. The bright side, IMO, is that there are some tools that do work, on the financial/technological side. The way Israel and the US collaborated to sabotage Iran's nuclear program a few years ago with the Stuxnet virus is a good example. Access to the global financial system is also a great one. Providing financial services to terrorists is something banks increasingly don't want to risk. IMO ISIS will have appeal as they have cash to spend making themselves appealing -- like any other political group in that part of the world. So you have to go at their cash. There's ongoing debate about how long they can manage the oil fields they control without any actual expertise, so that's good. The global community just punished Iran very severely by keeping its banks out of the SWIFT network, which facilitates global financial flows, and that was highly effective. Certainly there's political will right now for sanctions on countries that would include shutting their financial systems off from the rest of the world. Very powerful tools. Much better suited to fighting a group like ISIS in comparison with traditional military ones. No casualties and no humanitarian concerns -- wouldn't live forever with the legacy of dropping a bomb and all the collateral damage that would go with it. IMO This is the direction in which the US and its allies should be headed. The loser is the defense-contracting sector. And it's not as if there are headlines. That would just be a quiet siege. No changes for flag waving and heroes creation.

[Ghengis Jon]

Of course the nuclear option is the most objectionable. But what is the trade off for hoping the 30 years it will otherwise take will pay off? Economic 'solutions' presume a lot. First and foremost that the west is dealing with an organized, entrenched, functioning nation-state that is responsible. Its not. We are speaking about people that WANT to die for the cause, ie martyrdom as an entry in Heaven. Squeeze them economically, and they'll spend those last few dimes finding soft targets on their way to the afterlife. You are speaking about true zealots. Those who have one thing on their minds, jihad, and nothing else. In fact, all else detracts from the jihad.

Your proposal assumes you are confronting a rational, thinking, oppnent. You are not. You are dealing with fanatics, a one note band. Like any rabid dog that Daesh is, it needs to be mercifully put down.

[Ghengis Jon]

Looking at this morning's news, Daesh has just murdered a Chinese hostage for failure to pay ransom. Don't see much advantage in pissing off the Chinese.

[iam416]

Jon:

To be clear, I was using liberalism as a reference to western ideals, not Liberals (capital L). But as a counterpoint to your opening, Liberals seem to think that wars are not fought with guns and men willing to use them. I'm quite sure "might doesn't make right" but it does make power. And when it comes down to who has the power, I'm pretty good with it resting in the hands of those who practice Western liberalism and all the good things about it. I very much prefer it to the alternative.

As for the rest of your post, I'm in favor of doing whatever it takes to destroy Medieval Islam.