Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[SeattleLionsFan]

I don't know that the narrative that the now Nazis were just hanging out readying for a fight when Antifa attacked them is correct. As I understand it, the Nazis were much more aggressive than that. I think that changes the calculus if the Nazis were marching on black neighborhoods for example.

And ent, the ESPN thing was stupid and thoughtless.

[Wild Hoss]

Nah. They lose teeth, they'll bring guns. The other side will, too. Never underestimate escalatory idiocy.

They are already bringing guns.

I do not want to see rampant violence in our streets, but last weekend convinced me that these groups must be stood up to. Their most effective tool is the apathy of good people.

[Wild Hoss]

Who watches ESPN?

[AlabamAlum]

They'll start using the guns.

Sure, do something. Fist fighting them will make them do more of this:

http://www.newsweek.com/where-are-next-alt-right-right-wing-rallies-planned-651078

[hack]

Right. There's a time and place to excoriate antifa. Well, there already have been and it hasn't happened, but there will be more. This isn't the spot.

That said, here's a bedrock point we have to deal with. They have the right to assemble and march. How we - and I use we for the vast majority of Americans who are rational and explicitly reject these guys - so how do we deal with this right? I happen to think violently engaging them is perhaps the worst fucking thing you can do.

That said, any encounter with nazis means the nazis are at fault because they're nazis. I think you could literally machine gun them down and they'd be blamed because there is no way anyone can defend them in any way. So, perhaps antifa has it right...they can help ramp up the violence without repercussion and makes the nazis look even worse. That's opposite of what I'd do, but the mechanics are logical and probably effective.

Good post.

[hack]

Fighting these groups physically will only embolden them. It's a physical fight you will not win. You cannot beat-up Neaderthals and expect any kind of social epiphanies as a result. It just urges like-minded people who are not yet engaged to join. There are countless sleeper cells of idiots waiting to be activated. The various leaders of these groups love the conflict. That's why there are now more rallies scheduled. They count on it for the tribe mentality. "See?! It is us vs them. Look at them attacking your brothers!" Imagine trying to fistfight ISIS or Boko Haram and hoping that they see the light.

Let them sieg heil and get swastika tattoos and believe they are the 'master race' and then let them return to their double-wides and blue collar jobs. Let them break a law, though, you put them under the jail.

I truly believe these groups are indeed being marginalized, hoss. Most of us here have been in positions of leadership. Would any of us hire one? Further, their numbers aren't great. Take the Klan, for example. They have gone from several million to a few thousand members. They advertised and begged people to attend this rally and got a few hundred. The only thing that will save them is for them and their ilk to feel that they are at "war".

These ideas should be marginalized. You can't change minds, but you can keep this shit out of the public domain, so that the only place you can get exposed to dedicated hardcore racism is from your racist parents. I think the distinction between the people and their ideas is key. In my house we have downstairs behavior, and if you are not able to use it you go upstairs to your room.

Should the people be marginalized? When they are spreading the ideas, yes. Laws on the books should be enforced. That's an easy way to get started. If you can't find cops who will enforce the laws in a color-blind way, you need new cops.

Yes, those people want to be at war. They're not civilians spending all their disposable income on guns and military kit because they DON'T want to be at war. It's too late to have gun control, so they have guns now, and that's that. Damn well better prosecute them, but, overall, you fight the ideas and not the people.

[Wild Hoss]

https://www.vox.com/science-and-heal...logy-alt-right

Interesting article


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Definitely some concepts to think about in there, for certain.

[AlabamAlum]

But, hey, we can go all Sharks and Jets on them. One absolute group of morons fighting a somewhat less -but still very moronic- group at various locations around the US.

Maybe espn could cover it with Jim Lampley as host. It's Talent's Thunderdome idea coming to fruition.

[Wild Hoss]

They'll start using the guns.

Sure, do something. Fist fighting them will make them do more of this:

http://www.newsweek.com/where-are-ne...planned-651078

Do what then? This is the question.

[AlabamAlum]

These ideas should be marginalized. You can't change minds, but you can keep this shit out of the public domain, so that the only place dedicated hardcore racism is from having racist parents.

Should the people be marginalized? When they are spreading the ideas, yes. Laws on the books should be enforced. That's an easy way to get started. If you can't find cops who will enforce the laws in a color-blind way, you need new cops.

When you say "keep this shit out of the public domain," what do you mean? Not allowing them websites, printing of racist materials, assembly, parades?

[SeattleLionsFan]

Here is an account from a Charlottesville temple about the peacefully protesting Nazis. They were terrorized by Nazis and the police refused to help.

http://reformjudaism.org/blog/2017/08/14/charlottesville-local-jewish-community-presses

[AlabamAlum]

Do what then? This is the question.

About them meeting and buying tiki torches and nazi salutes and espousing racist beliefs?

These are all things that are legal and should remain legal. So, nothing, really. Officially, anyway. Although, I did like that many of them have been outted and their idiocy publicized. At least one has been fired and another shunned by his families.

But as far as "let's get a mob to go and try and beat-up another mob so they won't espouse racist and moronic things"? Nah. It will not work.

[hack]

I think so. As a kid in Canada I admired the absolute version of free speech practised in the US, and thought it was stupid that they prosecuted people like Ernst Zundel. However freedom of speech is more limited in plenty of places in which people are in every single way just as free as Americans, save for their inability to get in the faces of other people and hurl insults. On paper I like the idea of American freedom of speech but I think the practical experience suggests that heeding a noble idea comes with quite a few challenges, especially when it combines with some other extreme American takes on democracy. You can have that kind of freedom of speech, and you can have that kind of available weaponry, and independently, on paper, these ideas are defensible political theory. In reality, when they are combined the result is poisonous. Freedom of speech at this level of intensity plus guns = serious danger.

I think the real issue here though isn't these people, but the way they got to be this way. IMO what needs to be addressed more than the question of whether they can peacefully assemble is the way they were radicalized. Lying to people is now undeniably a lucrative business. This is no longer a country in which you can rightfully expect to counter lies with fact and expect to win. Freedom of speech with this level of intensity of capitalism = Rupert Murdoch/Roger Ailes/Breitbart/etc. Also toxic.

All this shit feeds on each other. Old ideas formed in a different time, that need a rethink, IMO.

[SeattleLionsFan]

About them meeting and buying tiki torches and nazi salutes and espousing racist beliefs?

These are all things that are legal and should remain legal. So, nothing, really. Officially, anyway. Although, I did like that many of them have been outted and their idiocy publicized. At least one has been fired and another shunned by his families.

But as far as "let's get a mob to go and try and beat-up another mob so they won't espouse racist and moronic things"? Nah. It will not work.

I get what you are saying, but that's not what happened.

[hack]

As a practical example of what I am saying, one easy decision is the Sinclair Broadcasting deal. If you're not interested in facts-based journalism you have no business accessing public airwaves. It's a no-brainer to reject the merger with Tribune and establish some standards for who is going to get to use the broadcast spectrum.

For now I think relying on the marketplace to quarantine bad ideas is sort of working as regards the internet. In an ideal world, rejection of extremism by the marketplace of ideas, in the form of the Daily Stormer not being able to find a host, is an interesting one. I don't like the idea of finding these guys' employers and pushing for them to get fired, and god bless the good ol' ACLU and Glenn Greenwald for being ideologically consistent about that. But if the marketplace can police itself, especially in terms of internet hosts refusing to host those people, that's good. Better these ideas fight and die in the market than by government killing them. I think. Thoughts are evolving on this; not certain.