Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[AlabamAlum]

The whole vote is Nicola's folly. I don't think she'll have the support or the votes.

Most Scots have seen the EU mandated influx of refugees and have seen some of the neighborhoods in Glasgow (and to a lesser degree, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, and Dundee) where they have taken over. An influx is fine, but the M.O. Is to make that area Muslim, not to assimilate to its customs. For example, non-Muslim Scottish women are forced to wear head coverings or face verbal altercations at the very least and in some of these communities there are restaurants and cafes there where non-Muslim men are not welcomed and women are absolutely forbidden. It's becoming an issue and it's one of the main reasons that Brexit was supported and celebrated with some MPs and Scottish citizens. I cannot imagine Nicola getting the rank and file to forget that.

[iam416]

EFZ, AA. I assume the Scots will stay, too, because Brussels is awful. I can't imagine trading London for the worst kind of technocrats in charge of an absolutely failing enterprise.

[AlabamAlum]

The only thing that scares my family is that we enjoy sticking a thumb in the eye of the hated Sassenach so much that support to pull out just to spite them (even to our own detriment) is an outside possibility.

Areas of Glasgow are shocking, though, and despite some liberal belief that it's been a success, it is not viewed that way by most of the public.

[hack]

55/45 in favor of staying in the UK in the '14 referendum. Then again, 62% were remainers in the Brexit vote last year. So it's not clear to me how many voters Sturgeon has to move over to her side of things. I personally would have guessed that waiting to let Brexit wounds continue to fester would be the way to go for her. Plenty of bad things to be said about the EU, and we'll see how it goes from here, but Scots know how much of a say they'll always have if they tie their fortunes to London. Picking from a slate of not-ideal choices, I guess. My concern about the UK government is that it is as captured by its financial sector as ours is by Wall Street. Suffering the finance curse.

Immigration is a real problem. I don't know how to get the numbers on this, but I'd be willing to bet that second-generation Muslims move out of their identity ghettoes much easier and in far larger numbers in North America and in Australia than they do in European countries. First-generation people are always going to be prone to huddling together. They do it for their kids. European countries, if they want the center to hold, have to either stop bringing in Middle Eastern Muslims specifically, or press the reset button on how it's done. You can't treat them like guest workers and expect it to all turn out fine.

[SeattleLionsFan]

Good point hack. You cannot demonize a people and then blame them for not embracing that culture and belief.

This is an astonishing interview from Steve King.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/steve-king-stuns-cuomo-with-talk-of-intermarriage-being-a-champion-of-western-civilization-and-more-on-new-day/

[iam416]

but I'd be willing to bet that second-generation Muslims move out of their identity ghettoes much easier and in far larger numbers in North America and in Australia than they do in European countries

Yeah, that's my sense, too. I mean, I've never been, but Dearborn seems like to have a "Muslim-American" population. I've also never been to Glasgow, Paris or Berlin, but those cities seem to have a distinctly "Muslim" population. I suspect part of the reason is the US has avoided mass muslim immigration, but that doesn't seem to fully explain it.

First-generation people are always going to be prone to huddling together. They do it for their kids. European countries, if they want the center to hold, have to either stop bringing in Middle Eastern Muslims specifically, or press the reset button on how it's done. You can't treat them like guest workers and expect it to all turn out fine.

Correct. It's going to be especially difficult for nations that are generous in providing citizens with benefits. In the great immigration waves in the US, it was heartless. You had to find work or you'd die. Staying in an urban ghetto wasn't the best option for most with gads of land and opportunity available. European countries aren't going to abandon their better nature, but it's going to eventually come to a head if they don't figure out a way to balance mass immigration w/ generous state benefits.

[iam416]

You cannot demonize a people and then blame them for not embracing that culture and belief

Sure you can. The onus is on them. Assimilate and become a productive member of the society you volun-fucking-tarily elected to join. The Irish did it in the face of the original anti-immigrant party, the Know Nothings (concur w/ anti-Irish sentiment; hate tee-totalin' platform). The Italians did it. The Chinese did it. The Latinos are doing it. The US has a long history of being asshats to immigrants but, god bless them, they come, they assimilate to become at least a hyphenated American and make the country better.

Expecting anything less of any immigrant group is pitifully low expectations.

[Dr. Strangelove]

European countries are more aggressive in demanding Muslims assimilate in some ways. France, in particular, is aggressively secularist and is less permissive of the burka, religious displays, etc. than in the US.

[hack]

"Assimilate" and "become a productive member of society" are two different things though. The vast majority of Americans live in multicultural settings and go to work. We also have a group of people who would rather stay in mono-cultural settings where there is no work. These people are a historical anomaly. Throughout the human experience, people seek work. They have not demanded that work find them where they are. Perhaps one reason why they don't want to go where the work is is that they do not want to "assimilate". Ultimately, I think all we can ask of the people who want in is to be productive. And I think we don't have to ask them to assimilate. The first generation won't, but the second generation will do that of its own volition, because the majority of them want to. Because, historically, this has been a more just society. Gotta keep it that way. Soft power.

European countries are not and never will have the ``nation of immigrants" mentality, or formal approach either. There are Turks born and raised in Germany and speak it fluently and will never be citizens. That could never happen here. We offer immigrants a real shot at assimilation, and the vast majority of them who come take us up on the offer. It's one thing to have Dearborn, and another to have the ghettoes in which Tunisians or Algerians live in France.

[hack]

European countries are more aggressive in demanding Muslims assimilate in some ways. France, in particular, is aggressively secularist and is less permissive of the burka, religious displays, etc. than in the US.

Niqabitches: so wrong/so right. I love the freedom of expression, but this possibly isn't a productive way to have the discussion:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-SvxEYLFTM"]niqabitch - YouTube[/ame]

[Dr. Strangelove]

People today aren't much aware of it but Germans in America still had lots of German-language schools, German-language newspapers, and German-run banks as late as the early 20th century. WWI killed it all as they feared persecution and wanted to prove their 'Americaness'.

Incidentally, anti-German WWI sentiment gave a boost to the Prohibition movement, as nearly all beer in America at that time was deeply connected to German brewers like Busch, Strohs, Miller, etc.

[iam416]

The Wilson Administration wasn't the best of moments for the US. The Sedition Act, in particular, was awful. Prohibition, of course, is an eternal stain on this great country. Anti-Kraut sentiment certainly didn't hurt, but I think it was on its way. Of course, the fucks from Nebraska were the state to make it official.

[entropy]

The whole vote is Nicola's folly. I don't think she'll have the support or the votes.

Most Scots have seen the EU mandated influx of refugees and have seen some of the neighborhoods in Glasgow (and to a lesser degree, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, and Dundee) where they have taken over. An influx is fine, but the M.O. Is to make that area Muslim, not to assimilate to its customs. For example, non-Muslim Scottish women are forced to wear head coverings or face verbal altercations at the very least and in some of these communities there are restaurants and cafes there where non-Muslim men are not welcomed and women are absolutely forbidden. It's becoming an issue and it's one of the main reasons that Brexit was supported and celebrated with some MPs and Scottish citizens. I cannot imagine Nicola getting the rank and file to forget that.

a lot of trump supporters (right or wrong) are concerned about losing their culture to immigrants. The anti-immigrant crowd has done a good job creating the concern that their rights/religion/culture/traditions will be at risk in favor of a new immigrant's traditions. This really is nothing new and the US has had a history of it.... We've also had a history of people blending in, where holidays or traditions are added rather than necessarily replaced. Again, right or wrong, the picture I see being painted is this time it is different.

The larger angle is obviously jobs, but culture and the fear of that change is also present.

[AlabamAlum]

As Talent knows, my family came to the US in 1910. We muted our brogue and learned American idioms and colloquialisms. We started wearing clothes like what other American's wore to work, church and out about town. We embraced the customs and language of Americans. We were very serious about being American. My grandfather told me how his mother wouldn't let him speak Gaelic in public. We avoided wearing our tartans. We ate like Americans. We talked like Americans. We acted like Americans. We were Americans.
Back then you had to become 'productive members'. There were scant social programs and you would starve if you didn't.

[AlabamAlum]

This is France, but it's becoming a common theme in Europe:

[ame]https://youtu.be/6gZFGpNdH1A[/ame]