Miscellaneous And Off Topic Subjects

[Rob F]

Wow .. that's the best gasoline on the fire I've tossed in here in quite some time ..

... Hack, I have not contacted you "several" times concerning your language or posting content. I sent YOU and OP one (1) e-mail, where I very diplomatically and quietly (that means I didn't want to involve the rest of the forum in the discussion) tried to get the two of you to agree to tone it down. Both of you chose to make that public. Rob F and I had spoken on the phone about this, before I sent you that e-mail. He and I agreed that QUIETLY and OFF THE FORUM was the appropriate way to handle the situation. It was YOUR CHOICE to make it public in the forum, not mine. And yes.. if you still have that e-mail from me, you may post it here for everyone to see. I'm not ashamed of anything I said in it. I still have a copy, and so does Rob.

And to sum up the rest of the comments ... let me say this about political content here.

This forum WILL NOT become a Political Discussion forum. Period. We're not going to have a "Fox News vs MSNBC" clown-fest over political topics. We TRIED IN THE PAST to have a political thread, and it DID NOT WORK. We ALL AGREED AT THAT TIME. to DROP political discussions, because we WANT TO REMAIN FRIENDS, and we DON'T want politics/opinions to harm those relationships. That policy will NOT change, as long as I have anything to do with this forum. There IS a Politics Forum that Deborah has set up, and its on the same menu that gets you in here. Go there, and have at it. Its not happening here.

And once again, I hereby offer my resignation from all forum activities, if a majority of the Michigan fans here decide that you want me gone. If I stay, I'm moving on as stated previously. If I'm gone, I'm completely gone, and will not return.

And DennisT ... turn on your sarcasm detector ... or buy some new batteries ...

Hack----Liney's correct; he and I conversed by phone several weeks ago when the "gay" comments/insults back and forth between you and OP were getting way out of hand. Personally, my feelings at that time---and I conveyed this to Liney---was that, though it's a lifestyle I don't condone, that I also did not condone such an insensitive and demeaning insult contest between the two of you. What either of you two are into or whatever prejudices either of you may have on that subject, Liney and I both agreed that it had gone too far; how to rein the two of you in was the problem. During the conversation with Liney I suggested the idea of sending the two of you an email asking for a more civil tone, etc., after discussing it a bit, Liney volunteered to take on that task. That said, obviously any positive after-effect was short-lived as the two of you were soon back to tossing "fruit-bombs" (an I allowed to say that?) back and forth at each other.

Now that I've covered that, I ask you: were the "gay" insults between the two of you any more or any less offensive than the "discussion" regarding race and violence, that precipitated today's debate? To some, I'm sure, those insults are very demeaning and insensitive. I have a former college roommate who I still consider a friend that came out of the closet years after we roomed together. Though initially that knowledge creeped me out, I eventually came to realize that Jeff is still a good guy and a true friend. I also have a 1st cousin that is gay; it doesn't make me love him any less than any of my straight cousins. So, if you must know, I find that kind of commentary out-of-line and somewhat offensive.

Back to the politics thingie. Like Liney wrote, NO WAY we're going to allow that. Several years ago, I was one of a few on the U of M WX forum that wanted to have a "politics" thread, thinking that we had a strong enough and mature enough group of regulars that it would be a good way to discuss and trade ideas on our political views. WAS I EVER WRONG!!!! The place didn't take long to break down into a slimy disgusting mess; unfortunately, though, I as moderator had other things on my plate in my personal life (separation and divorce), and the monster I had helped create, a Politics thread, was a monster I didn't take the time to moderate. We all learned a lesson back then: politics (maybe more than any other subject) is a subject that will piss otherwise normal people off to the point of irrational behavior. Bottom line on this forum is, and will stay---NOT HERE, take it to Deb's Politics Forum! Absolute. Final. Decision.

Like I posted a few hours ago, politics will often be intertwined inextricably from other discussions involving current events, religion, etc. As long as politics doesn't become the central and most explosive point of contention within such discussions, then I prefer to allow complete freedom of speech. But such discussions do require some amount of moderation at times to the point of even deletions, and I will do so (at last resort) once anyone steps too far out-of-line with interjection of politics (or, for that matter, any other kind of comment that is too blatantly out-of-line).

Liney, whatever you choose to do (regarding continuing as monitor/moderator/grand pooh-bah) at this point is OK with me. As I too know, it's a thankless job and one I've on occasion gotten close to the point of resigning from. But like others have said, it's a decision that would be best handled in a way other than a threat one pulls out when frustrated with the misbehavior of others; in other words, don't pull out the 'I'll quit' card when people push your buttons. This is my favorite forum to post at, and for a large part, it's because of the way you've run it over the years ( not to mention the mix of good, bad, ugly, and downright creepy members that partake in the shit-slinging and other discussion). If you do decide to no longer moderate, please stick around and post.

[Rob F]

Rob, I've been posting in a Lions Forum in one iteration or another that Deb has moderated for about 17 years. I imagine that there are more, but other than obvious spammers, I can only think of one poster that has been banned. There are quite a few that didn't conform and were chased off by the members of the forum, though. It really is very much a self policing entity. When those of us that have been around have been out of line (and Lord knows I have been guilty) Deb sends a "quit being a dumbass" email. We may argue with her a bit, but we usually see the light. There have been posts and series of posts that have been moved to the politics forum, but really that is kind of rare because most posters get it. The Lions forum is really loosely moderated. There are discussions and exchanges there that make what is posted between Hack and OP look tame in comparison, and sometimes it can get downright nasty, but as a rule, politics are off limits. Those of us that have been around know better that to take a jab at a politician, even when it is only a joke, because we know where it will go.

OK, lets see if I got it right here---anytime Talent or his poodle get out of line or otherwise piss me off, I send them a "quit being a dumbass" email. Right?

Sounds too easy to be true, or more likely, something i'll have to do every hour, on the hour.

;-)

[lineygoblue]

And nobody has been banned since we've moved here from WC.

To take it a step further I did not ban anyone over the last 2 years or so over at the WC site. Rob, Jeff and I have discussed "banning" before, and none of us like it. However, there are times when that option has been discussed. Usually, the potential "ban-ee" gets his s#it together, stops the nonsense, and the situation dies out. Even Mr. Talent ESQ knows how to walk this tightrope and has done so very well for years now.

Hack - I have you down for one (1) vote for me to step aside. I'll continue to track the opinions of the Michigan faithful here. I don't remember the second e-mail that you noted, and I'm checking my e-mail file for it right now. If there was something in that e-mail that you feel I should be ashamed of, please feel free to post it here. My point continues to be that I made an honest attempt to quietly handle a situation between two people, so that we wouldn't have a major forum blowup. Unfortunately, my efforts failed. For that, I am sorry. It is not my fault that it failed, but I admit it failed.

Regarding the Al and Jesse show. I still view my comment about them as pointing out their moral flaws, rather than insulting their race, or starting a political discussion. If I were to make a remark like "Its good neither of them are President right now", then that would be a political remark. My reference was to how by their words and actions, they continue to stain the reputations of many, MANY other men of God who have faithfully answered the call to be ministers, and have lived the example of the life they have been called to, but have to put up with jokers like those two who should never be allowed near a pulpit. But, that's just my opinion.

There will not be a political discussion thread as long as I am posting here. That is final.

[CGVT]

OK, lets see if I got it right here---anytime Talent or his poodle get out of line or otherwise piss me off, I send them a "quit being a dumbass" email. Right?

Sounds too easy to be true, or more likely, something i'll have to do every hour, on the hour.

;-)

Yep. You just need a little thicker skin, though ;)

But really, as far as I can see the OSU guys seem to keep most of the jackassery to their thread. If they venture out they seem relatively civil, all things considered.

[hack]

were the "gay" insults between the two of you any more or any less offensive than the "discussion" regarding race and violence, that precipitated today's debate? To some, I'm sure, those insults are very demeaning and insensitive. I have a former college roommate who I still consider a friend that came out of the closet years after we roomed together. Though initially that knowledge creeped me out, I eventually came to realize that Jeff is still a good guy and a true friend. I also have a 1st cousin that is gay; it doesn't make me love him any less than any of my straight cousins. So, if you must know, I find that kind of commentary out-of-line and somewhat offensive.

I have a gay brother and two uncles. My brother in particular sometimes calls things ``gay'' too. Context is key. I don't think anyone actually thinks that OP is gay, myself included. I don't think that using the term in a joking way equates to homophobia, but in the right crowd. This isn't it, we now know. I think that in the context of that Florida debate in which I and OP originally got into it, I was just joking around a bit. Northern stereotypes vs. Miami ones, etc. I didn't expect it to have legs. If it's offensive, I can definitely respect that.

What I really and truly take issue with is the idea that one poster or group's sensibilities ought to be respected but that another's don't have to be. There were some gay slurs that came up some months before that, and I quietly at the time let liney know that the double-standard didn't seem to make sense.

Several years ago, I was one of a few on the U of M WX forum that wanted to have a "politics" thread, thinking that we had a strong enough and mature enough group of regulars that it would be a good way to discuss and trade ideas on our political views. WAS I EVER WRONG!!!! The place didn't take long to break down into a slimy disgusting mess; unfortunately, though, I as moderator had other things on my plate in my personal life (separation and divorce), and the monster I had helped create, a Politics thread, was I monster I didn't take the time to moderate. We all learned a lesson back then: politics (maybe more than any other subject) is a subject that will piss otherwise normal people off to the point of irrational behavior.

I was there for that. I thought it was a very wise move when linesman shut that down back then. No doubt about it, linesman has done yeoman work here as the moderator of the forum, and some boundaries set years ago have reaped rewards today. It just seems fair to apply the rule to himself as well as others, and to incorporate the sensibilities of the group in defining what's in bounds rather than one person's.

[hack]

My point continues to be that I made an honest attempt to quietly handle a situation between two people, so that we wouldn't have a major forum blowup.

I don't doubt your good intentions, and I hope that's clear.

[lineygoblue]

I don't doubt your good intentions, and I hope that's clear.

Ok, then we're fine.

I will henceforward do my best to instruct my fingers to not type what my head is thinking, when I desire to comment on political issues, or issues that may be construed as political.

Acceptable?

[Hannibal]

Most definitely. Are you pretending they are mutually exclusive?

No, but when confronted on/asked to clarify your "racism" statement, you instead proceeded to complain about inconsistent enforcement of the "no politics" rule.

[Ghengis Jon]

Ya know what guys? I think that those of you who have never met before should meet up for a game in A2. Perceived belligerence, arrogance and pompousness all seems to vanish once a face to face meeting occurs. The internet brings out the worst in people and emboldens the immature by providing a level of 'protection' through it's faceless interaction. It is an in-person interaction that kills all the nastiness that the internet inflames. I happen to be a very liberal libertarian (seeming contradiction) and there are some very stout authoritarian conservatives that post here. We've all been to Doug's tailgate many times over the years, and that face-to-face has forged some pretty strong friendships. Among those who I have diametrically opposed political/religious/moral views, there's not one I wouldn't go out of my way for. People I once viewed as a complete jackass, I now wouldn't think twice about rendering assistance (financial or otherwise) without any expectation of repayment in like. Such is the power of in person interaction.

I sincerely wish that those of you/us that have not met, that we do so. If nothing else to gain a perspective of the others' personality. Through the written word, one cannot really detect (100% of the time) what is sarcasm, what is gentle prodding, and what is heartfelt belief. Getting to know someone clears all that up.

Across the written word here on the internet, I can come across like a acerbic, know-it-all, asinine blowhard - but those here who have known me for years will attest I'm really not much more than an acerbic, know-it-all, asinine blowhard. :^)

[hack]

I will henceforward do my best to instruct my fingers to not type what my head is thinking, when I desire to comment on political issues, or issues that may be construed as political.

That's what you've asked of others. Discretion is the better part of valour, yada yada...

[hack]

No, but when confronted on/asked to clarify your "racism" statement, you instead proceeded to complain about inconsistent enforcement of the "no politics" rule.

Because that's the point I wanted to make. I don't really know the lot of you well enough to start smearing you. I only knew the sound of the words on the screen.

Which is why banning politics -- and sticking to the rule -- is a good idea in the first place.

[Jeff Buchanan]

......... Which is why banning politics -- and sticking to the rule -- is a good idea in the first place.

A lot of ink, boys, to reach this logical conclusion.

[Optimus Prime]

Dr Phil meet Jerry Springer, I am vacation and whole Forum goes to hell.

Hack I was just throwing darts at the board, didn't think I'd actually get a bull's-eye.

Since you can't unring that bell:

I have a gay brother and two uncles. My brother in particular sometimes calls things ``gay'' too.

Also, I read last night, but see this morning that you've edited your post about your gay roommate in college, "Jeff". Apparently you didn't know he was gay at the time but you "guys" still remain good friends?

FWIW, your lifestyle choices are no real concerns of mine.

[Hannibal]

You need to do what the SEC boosters do and start diverting some of that money into the hands of prized recruits.

Get on that ASAP.

[lineygoblue]

I'd like to echo Jon's eloquent post.

A good case in point is Stan White. Before I met the man, I didn't know if I ever wanted to see his face.

When I finally met him at one of Doug's tailgate gatherings, I realized just the opposite about him. He's a fine man, and the time we spent together getting to know each other was probably one of my most enjoyable tailgate meetings ever.

I believe I would have similar results with each and every one of you.

... well, except maybe talent ... :-)