U of M Basketball Recruiting Discussion

[paul daugherity]

UM hoops may not have been a perennial Final Four team before the Fab 5, but it was better than ordinary. They did win the NCAA tournament in 1989, and had been in 2 or 3 Final Fours prior to that. They were a perennial NCAA tournament participant, and pretty reliably made it to rounds 2 or 3. Not at the elite level of say Kansas, Kentucky or Indiana, but not terrible either.

[hack]

I'm just guessing, but MSU's run of excellence hasn't coincided with a similar one for other traditional B1G powers. In the late 80s and early 90s it was pretty common for there to be two B1G teams with #1 seeds in the tourney and a few more at 2, 3 or 4. Lou Henson's Illini were strong; Keady's Purdue; Knight's last elite teams with Indiana. Ohio had its years with Jim Jackson and that core.

In the Izzo era it hasn't been that competitive, has it?

[The Oracle]

There was a point in a game last year, I forget which, in which Morgan picked up his typical second foul, came back to the bench frustrated, and Beilein was just the picture of parenthood -- a sympathetic smile, some wise words, a calming effect, and then a teachable moment. It was a great, great, coaching moment.

Oracle are you saying that the talent is like it used to be? Doesn't seem like it to me and it does explain Izzo and MSU.

The other factor is that Izzo doesn't like recruiting and keeps flirting with the NBA. He's going to jump sooner or later. Is there someone on that family tree that can take over? I doubt Crean leaves Indiana, right?

No, it's not like it used to be. But not even close to "dried up". And even in years when Michigan isn't putting out top 100 talent, Indiana, Ohio and Chicago have more than enough to supply MSU. MSU not recruiting talent doesn't "explain" anything(even though they were in the FF 2 years ago, no?)

[hack]

IMO until the Fabs Michigan was an elite program below the level of Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, Indiana, UCLA. Now there's a lot of work to be done and at least a decade of eliteness before it's time to put Michigan back in that one-tier-below-royalty discussion.

[*JD*]

UM hoops may not have been a perennial Final Four team before the Fab 5, but it was better than ordinary. They did win the NCAA tournament in 1989, and had been in 2 or 3 Final Fours prior to that. They were a perennial NCAA tournament participant, and pretty reliably made it to rounds 2 or 3. Not at the elite level of say Kansas, Kentucky or Indiana, but not terrible either.

I don't know about the 50's but Michigan has had at least one team in the NCAA Championship game in the 60's, 70's, 80's & 90's. That's a pretty good history of success and '99 to '08 was really the exception.

[lineygoblue]

My point was, and is, that the Michigan talent pipeline, that Izzo ruled while Michigan was on NCAA sanctions, has dried up. He made a lot of "hay" with his "flintstones" connections, which were kids that came from the Flint and Saginaw area. That pipeline is gone.

My point is, Izzo cannot win a NCAA title with his "flintstones" connections anymore. That is gone. He's going to have to branch out, and do so regularly, and in doing so, will bump heads with Matta, Tom Crean, Beilein, and the other top coaches in the country as well.

Tom Izzo is on the down side of his career at MSU. I don't think he'll be there 5 years from now. Maybe not even 3 years from now.

[The Oracle]

I'm just guessing, but MSU's run of excellence hasn't coincided with a similar one for other traditional B1G powers. In the late 80s and early 90s it was pretty common for there to be two B1G teams with #1 seeds in the tourney and a few more at 2, 3 or 4. Lou Henson's Illini were strong; Keady's Purdue; Knight's last elite teams with Indiana. Ohio had its years with Jim Jackson and that core.

In the Izzo era it hasn't been that competitive, has it?

Well off the top of my head(and I may be wrong), hasn't Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, Minnesota, and Illinois all made Final Fours in the Izzo era?

[paul daugherity]

Thanks for clarifying that JD. Off the top of my head, I couldn't remember if they had been in the championship game or just made it to the Final Four.

[Deuce]

Deuce part of the mix is that Izzo did that when Michigan and Indiana weren't in a position to compete. Michigan now is. If Crean gets Indiana back on track that's a huge factor too.

I think there are enough recruits to go around. All 3 of those schools are "back" and are showing us that the Midwest can stock all the Big Ten powers with enough ammo. Indiana's class is sick, Michigan's class is sick and MSU's is sick. Even Purdue is going to be able to live off the scraps.

Reading the Rivals top 100 national board is like reading a map of Indiana. Same thing.

[hack]

Oracale according to http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ege=michiganst, there were four MSU players drafted in 2001 and 2002 and three since then. Izzo's always pulled in talent, but these days there's usually not a Jason Richardson or a Marcus Taylor coming off the bench as a freshman because the uperclassmen are too entrenched. That's a rough measure admittedly but it is an ``explanation'' regardless.

[hack]

None of the bolded makes sense to me. The talent pool isn't gone, The Midwest has top recruits to spare even if Michigan itself does not. Even in U of M's glory year this year w/ McGary, MSU is still there with Indiana's Gary Harris, a top 100 Ohio kid, and two top 100 Michigan kids. Izzo does not have to leave the Michigan/Indiana/Ohio area to field his most talented teams probably ever.

Izzo is still bringing elite Ohio kids (Payne), elite Indiana kids (Harris,Dawson) and is in on elite Chicago kids for 2013 (Parker). Indiana and Ohio are so deep in prospects they can field 5 Big Ten tourney quality teams and still let Kentucky and Louisville steal some of the best from the area.
It's that deep year in year out.

Well off the top of my head(and I may be wrong), hasn't Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, Minnesota, and Illinois all made Final Fours in the Izzo era?

I'm not talking about making a run in the tourney. I'm talking about being a year-in-year-out elite program with a high chance of ending up a #1 or #2 seed. Those are the kinds of programs that could, in theory, crowd out MSU in recruiting battles. In the late 80s and early 90s there were four programs in the B1G that fit that description.

Deuce, thanks. We'll see how it goes but certainly the competition is going to get tighter. Michigan and Indiana aren't at the point yet in their resurrections where they can really threaten MSU. There needs to be a sense of inevitability that the best recruits in either state are headed either to Ann Arbor of Bloomington, and that's not the case. The potential is there for that to happen as well as a few top-20 national kids ended up at those programs, and at that point, with Michigan's national presence and alumni network etc., and Indiana's tradition, exposure for those programs could end up significantly greater than at MSU. And, of course, if Izzo leaves as I suspect he might at some point in the next 5 years (he keeps flirting and sooner or later will consummate), it's going to be very, very tough for MSU to keep up.

[*JD*]

I think a lot of Izzo's blue-chippers haven't really made leaps of improvement while at spartieland. I mean that in regards to going from being an elite HS talent to being an NBA talent.
Marcus Taylor and Paul Davis immediately come to mind. Shannon Brown has carved out a niche for himself as a energy guy off the bench but he's not close to being a star. Draymon Green could end up being a Poor Man's (sane) Ron Artest, I suppose.

Maybe I'm forgetting somebody but it seems like there hasn't been much since JRich and Fat Zack came into the league and both those guys have had reps as being selfish players.

[hack]

Taylor was just stupid and left early, no? IIRC he led the league in assists as a soph.

[The Oracle]

Yup, maybe even scoring too.

[*JD*]

I'm not talking about making a run in the tourney. I'm talking about being a year-in-year-out elite program with a high chance of ending up a #1 or #2 seed. Those are the kinds of programs that could, in theory, crowd out MSU in recruiting battles. In the late 80s and early 90s there were four programs in the B1G that fit that description.

Deuce, thanks. We'll see how it goes but certainly the competition is going to get tighter. Michigan and Indiana aren't at the point yet in their resurrections where they can really threaten MSU. There needs to be a sense of inevitability that the best recruits in either state are headed either to Ann Arbor of Bloomington, and that's not the case. The potential is there for that to happen as well as a few top-20 national kids ended up at those programs, and at that point, with Michigan's national presence and alumni network etc., and Indiana's tradition, exposure for those programs could end up significantly greater than at MSU. And, of course, if Izzo leaves as I suspect he might at some point in the next 5 years (he keeps flirting and sooner or later will consummate), it's going to be very, very tough for MSU to keep up.

I could see the Clippers going after him once they realize that Vinny Del Negro isn't going to be the answer there. Or.....our Pistons in 3 or 4 years? I don't want to put the kibosh on Frank, though. I'm just saying that a local team with a spartie owner would have to be maybe the greatest appeal to Tommy. He almost took the bait in Cleveland.