U of M Basketball Recruiting Discussion

[WM Wolverine]

UCLA is a good example that any program without a good/great coach can become mediocre but they'll always be a sleeping giant as is true of any of those 'bluebloods.' Surprised they hung-on to Howland for so long.

[iam416]

Howland was a disaster. He stifled talent and played ugly basketball. He is a probably a good coach for a middling program. I'm sure he could go to somewhere like Minnesota and turn the into a perennial root canal to play. But that style isn't for UCLA or any other elite program. And it won't attract true elite players.

That said, he still made it to, what, 3 FFs?

[hack]

That's a very good argument about Indiana. I think it's a bit early to judge. Questions extant about Beilein, although I suspect the answer to them will end up being ``he didn't have a big enough stretch 4 that year''. Crean's team played wonderfully all year, but the way they went down was a little strange. Only Watford seemed to have a sense of what was happening and the appetite to do something about it. The rest of them just played the game until the clock stopped. Then again, Michigan didn't solve Syracuse' defense any better than Crean. Michigan simply had players that stepped up to the plate when needed, and Indiana didn't. Beilein gets some of the credit as the captain of such an admirable bunch, certainly.

You're probably right. I suspect that Indiana's old-fashioned fuddy-duddy kinda vibe hurts them, and I think among bluebloods they don't get many pulls outside the region. Knight being a tough coach to play for didn't help that back in the day. ``he's going to end up with a program that is as good or better than OSU, M, Wisky and MSU'' - I don't know that's true. If it turns out that way, absolutely -- blueblood. Mike Davis' Final Four year with Jared Jeffries is a result you can't argue with, either. Then again, without it we're 25 years since Indiana was relevant in April, and until this year they've done nothing in conference either.

I think ultimately we might want to define what makes for a good coach. Eliminate recruiting from the argument and there's no question about it, Izzo and Ryan stand out. (I hate the hate of Wisconsin. They have a superior strategy and instead of calling them ``a bad matchup for us'' or make other excuses, maybe we should see why they so consistently punch above their weight and maybe adopt some of that). When you consider recruiting an elemental part of being a good college coach, then IMO you start with Matta and then Izzo, Crean and Beilein are right there a notch below.

[iam416]

I think Ryan recruits very well for what he wants to do. I don't think of Wisconsin as undertalented within Ryan's system. I think guys like Devin Harris, Alando Tucker, Jordan Taylor and John Leuer were big-time players. I think Sam Dekker will give them that quality the next couple seasons.

I don't think you can be as successful in the B10 as he is purely coaching up marginal talent. He does a great job with the overall program. He brings in enough quality to win and what he lacks for in depth of quality he makes up for with his approach to coaching the game.

[iam416]

In addition to Ryan, there's a very strong argument that Thad Matta is the best coach in Ohio State history. Fred Taylor is the only other coach in the conversation, and that's mostly because Jerry Lucas and John Havlicek played for him. There's a good argument he underachieved with those teams. IMO, Matta is not only the best coach in OSU history, it's a landslide.

At MSU, I think Izzo is the best coach they have ever had. And, again, I don't think it's particularly close. I guess Heathcote is 2nd, but Izzo has matched or surpassed everything he's done and then some.

Beilein, despite his apparent hatred of stretch 4s, is a very good coach.

I think McCaffery and Groce are probably going to be pretty good.

It's a hell of a league. I don't really see the league falling off much. I don't think OSU, MSU, M or IU are going to slide. I think Illinois may rise a bit. Iowa may get there, too. Purdue is a threat if Painter can get some talent to WL. It's just a tough league.

And dumbass Coach Dwight probably sits in the best position to win the B10 year in and year out.

[WM Wolverine]

Ryan brings in guys that are terrific fits for his style of play, he doesn't bring in 'great' talents but talent that is perfect for what he wants to do.

[WM Wolverine]

IU is imo the only potential slide (to the middle of the conference) and that should only be a 1-year blip.

[hack]

In addition to Ryan, there's a very strong argument that Thad Matta is the best coach in Ohio State history. Fred Taylor is the only other coach in the conversation, and that's mostly because Jerry Lucas and John Havlicek played for him. There's a good argument he underachieved with those teams. IMO, Matta is not only the best coach in OSU history, it's a landslide.

At MSU, I think Izzo is the best coach they have ever had. And, again, I don't think it's particularly close. I guess Heathcote is 2nd, but Izzo has matched or surpassed everything he's done and then some.

Beilein, despite his apparent hatred of stretch 4s, is a very good coach.

I think McCaffery and Groce are probably going to be pretty good.

It's a hell of a league. I don't really see the league falling off much. I don't think OSU, MSU, M or IU are going to slide. I think Illinois may rise a bit. Iowa may get there, too. Purdue is a threat if Painter can get some talent to WL. It's just a tough league.

And dumbass Coach Dwight probably sits in the best position to win the B10 year in and year out.

I don't have the sense of OSU history to comment but Matta's an excellent coach, no doubt about it. Izzo is the best coach ever at MSU that I've seen certainly. Agreed about Groce at Illinois too.

[lineygoblue]

Hack, why do you hate Gus Ganakas?

:-)

[hack]

Heh.

[Da Geezer]

Good discussion. Basically I agree witht he proposition that a "blueblood" still needs a great coach to take advantage of inherent advantages they may have. I believe those advantages were established during the period that there was one or two basketball games on the 3 major networks each weekend. Those schools live off that ethos still. Duke, UNC, UCLA, Kentucky and Kansas are long-established brands. I'd include IU because they have been very good for several coaches. I remember the Van Arsdale twins during our Cazzie Russel era.

I further think that Beilein is in the process of frittering away the FF appearance this year. UM played appealing basketball and should be able to capitalize on that. It just has not happened (yet). The most recent class was fine, but the 2014 class has not yet had a real blue-chip signee. Beilein risks acquiring the reputation of a recruiter of promising 3* players.

[hack]

I think there's a lot of time before we need to worry. Immediate gratification in the form of Looney picking us would have been nice, but it's not necessary.

[WM Wolverine]

McGary & Robinson having very good seasons and getting drafted high will help JB recruit more top talent.

[Da Geezer]

How tall is Jaylen Johnson?

[*JD*]

I further think that Beilein is in the process of frittering away the FF appearance this year. UM played appealing basketball and should be able to capitalize on that. It just has not happened (yet). The most recent class was fine, but the 2014 class has not yet had a real blue-chip signee. Beilein risks acquiring the reputation of a recruiter of promising 3* players.

That's hard to say at this point. I think two and three summers ago were somewhat the exception to the rule. Michigan got early commits from Juniors-to-be.

I remember Webber and Rose didn't commit until after their Senior years were done.

Even recently, McGary didn't commit until November of his Senior year.

Official Visits start when classes start for the class of 2014. That's when things start to get serious. So far, Kameron Chatman is the only one I know that has scheduled a visit but there are rumblings that Booker will be making one as well.

BTW- I"m pretty sure I read that Kentucky did already offer Kennard. That was his dream school as a kid so Michigan may be in the dust as far as he goes. It's hard to say because who knows how many of their one-and-dones fall flat.