U of M Basketball Recruiting Discussion

[Jamie H]

I don't know if the air travel safety statistics include these single engine planes. They are hugely dependent on the skill of the pilot and the mechanic who works on them. I trust airline jets, but prop jobs like the one in this crash? Not so much.

[hodgkal]

I once had a private pilot license, single engine land, back when I was much younger and had more free time. The thing I remember was a monthly magazine for private pilots that I used to take that listed every crash in the privious month with an analysis that determined the probable cause. They listed three categories: pilot error, weather, or mechanical failure. In almost every case the primary cause of the crash was -- pilot error! These reports related only to private pilots, not commercial pilots.

They used to say if you are going to fly do it a lot or don't do it at all. There are too many macho weekend warriors who think they are immune to the dangers that lurk in this dangerous activity. You can't be too careful. I know. I had more than one close call before I gave it up.

[Jamie H]

Unfortunately, it sounds like both of Dr. Hatch's plane flights were pilot error. In the first one 8 years ago, he clipped a power line or something (which I assume has to be pilot error, though I don't really know). This time they are saying it looks like a combination of pilot error and some bad weather.

Truly tragic. I can't imagine the emotional baggage this kid is going to have. Hopefully he will recover and find a second family with the UM basketball team.

[lineygoblue]

When I was in the USCG, I had regular contact with pilots of helicopters and fixed wing planes. One of the things I remember them saying when they heard of single engine plane crashes was, "You take the number of engines, and divide by 2, .. if the number is less than 1, you don't fly it". They hated flying single engine aircraft. Nowadays, almost all USCG aircraft have at least two engines.

I tend to agree with what Doc said above. Flying is something that really can't be a hobby. It needs to be something that you do all the time, because even simple mistakes can have grave consequences. I think of JFK Jr., and how his accident happened. They concluded that he was flying an aircraft that was a bit over his skill level to be flying.

[Jamie H]

Yep, and JFK Jr. was flying in bad weather that he was not prepared for.

Flying a plane in sunny weather is hard enough. Flying it in bad weather is exponentially harder. My step-dad had a pilots license in his younger days, but never owned a plane. He told stories of his bad-weather training and how difficult it could get in bad weather, even with a trained instructor aboard. It's not like driving a car--you have to be able to respond to a bunch of different emergencies IMMEDIATELY or you are in big trouble. You can't just pull over to the side of the road.

[SeanB]

I'm sure my Dad will weigh in when he gets a chance, but I remember when he retired after 20 years of flying military aircraft, he tole me that he would never, ever get behind the sticks of a single engine "weekend aircraft".

I asked him why, because I simply thought it would be a natural progression, and maybe he'd take me for a flight. He simply said, "They are way too unpredictable. One slip, and you're done."

That is very, very sad news for the Hatch family.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Now that we know the young Hatch is going to do pretty well (latest word), this is probably OK to talk about.

Hatch's Dad who was the Pilot in Command of the plane that crashed, killing himself and two others had, another plane crash involving fatalities in 2003. He had about 900 total hours (that's low) and had logged under 100 hours of instrument time (that's really low).

Flying is a technically difficult undertaking; it requires currency more than anything else. You can't jump into an airplane and fly it well when you do it once or twice a month or even less which is typical of private pilots in civil aviation. If you do it every day and are current in the type of maneuvers you are going to perform, you get good at them. Commercial and military pilots get good ..... private pilots that don't fly much and don't have a background in aviation to fall back on are an accident waiting to happen.

It's not that difficult to operate an aircraft in clear weather and with everything operating in the aircraft like it should. When you are operating without visual reference, on instruments, its more difficult ..... if something is wrong with the aircraft, it is very difficult. Military and commercial pilots practice handling emergencies in simulators; private pilots don't. That should tell you how good these three groups of pilots are in handling difficult situations.

In the elder Hatch's first mishap, he was operating in clear weather conditions but one engine had failed. He was unable to maintain altitude and hit a pole trying to make an emergency landing in a field. The reason one engine had failed is because he made a mistake managing the fuel selectors (a very common cause of civil aviation mishaps). Details of the recent mishap are not available.

Sean is right ... I knew the kind of currency it takes to be a proficient pilot, could not maintain it in light aircraft and therefore had no interest in endangering my life or the life of others trying to operate civil aircraft. Still don't and still have no interest.

[lineygoblue]

Well, it could make your football weekend trips to Ann Arbor and other Big Ten destinations a lot easier .... :-)

Just sayin' ...

[Jamie H]

I'm sure that is why people do it. It is a lot more convenient to jump in a plane and fly somewhere than drive when you are talking long distances. As long as you've got the cash to burn. And is there anyone that actually enjoys flying on the commercial airlines?

That all being said, I think I'll stick to flying with the pros, even if it is annoying.

[Jeff Buchanan]

It is VERY expensive ..... you can rent a Piper Cardinal which is equipped for Instrument flight at about 90 bucks an hour. It would take me about 6 hours to fly from Atlanta to AA at 130 knots ground speed and I would have to refuel once; round trip with 12 hours of engine time = $1080. Aviation fuel at $6/gallon would run about $600. Ramp fees (parking) around $50. That's $1730.

A commercial R/T ticket, non-stop from ATL to DTW is under $200.

Lines, you do the math!

Jamie, good choice.

[Jeff Buchanan]

........ owning an aircraft is prohibitively expensive. A decent, used Beech Bonanza like the one the deceased Dr. Hatch was flying would cost you about 100-200 grand (new about 500 grand).

Parking depends but usually 150 -200/month.

Annual inspections from the multi-hundreds to the multi-thousands depending on what is being done but the FAA is very rigorous with these. You cannot operate an aircraft unless it is certified and you have to get the inspections by an FAA certified mechanic to do that.

[lineygoblue]

I didn't realize that a civilian aircraft would take that long to cover that distance, and that you'd have to refuel enroute. I guess that would be quite a hassle.

[Jeff Buchanan]

OK ..... three hours in a twin at 260 ground speed but probably $250/per hour to rent and 2X the gas.

[SeanB]

Dad just needs to buy a G4.

[hodgkal]

Here's a personal story that I am embarrassed to tell but it has a lesson.


I learned how to fly in a little aero club while stationed at a USAF hospital in southern Oklahoma in 1958. We got very inexpensive instruction and could fly our little Luscomb and Aeronca Champ single engine aircraft for $7.00 per hour. It was strictly visual flight rules and no instrument flying. I got checked out for solo after 7 hours and later flew down to Love Field in Dallas for my final exam. When I landed there I learned I had broken several rules about spacing and altitude over a high traffic area and landed on the same runway as the commercial airliners. I was ignorant of the rules! They flunked me on my exam but I later passed it on a second try.


The following year I was transferred to Selfridge AFB Hospital outside Detroit and joined their aero club. I got checked out in a Cessna 172 By this time I was really getting pretty confident of my flying abilities. My big project that spring was a plan to fly my wife and baby son from Detroit to Grand Rapids.


We first had to fly from Selfridge to Macomb County Airport to fuel up. Then we had to fly to Detroit City as part of the flight plan. On our take off from Macomb (a short runway) we barely cleared the trees at the end of the runway because I had mistakenly left on the carburetor heat switch which degraded to the engine power. Imagine the sight of looming tree tops ahead and the plane won't climb! We barely made it over the tops.


Once we left Detroit I navigated using Omni (an old radar system that is no longer used). On our approach to Grand Rapids I noticed the plane was starting to veer and and only later realized we almost ran out of fuel because I had failed to open one of the wing tanks!. Then as we were in our landing pattern I misinterpreted the tower instructions and landed on the wrong runway! And as we were about to touch down I couldn't get the nose of the plane down because I had incorrectly packed our luggage and it had shifted! It was hairy!


I was dropping my family off at my in-laws and returning alone to Selfridge Field that same afternoon. I miscalculated the time required and didn't reach Selfridge until it was almost dark (no instrument capability). And then I incorrectly landed on the main runway, the one used by the F-102s at the base. I got royally reamed out by the tower when I pulled up at the parking area.


It is hard to believe how many dumb and dangerous things I did on that one flight. Bottom line: I didn't know what the hell I was doing! It all started with cheap and inadequate flight instruction plus lack of experience flying in high traffic areas, complicated by youthful overconfidence. I am sure no young pilot today could get a license with the background I had at that time.


That was the last time I ever flew an airplane. I and my family are lucky to be alive!


And an ironic post-script: The Cessna 172 I mentioned above killed 3 pilots a few months later when it went down in bad weather near Coldwater, MI. There was a picture of the crash in the paper and I recognized the wing insignia ending in 89A (“89 alpha” was the call in).