2020 Citrus Bowl Alabama v. Michigan, January 1st, 1:00 PM EST, ABC

[paul daugherity]

[iam416]

[lineygoblue]

M: Winning at the Game of Life!

Yeah.

That's not important, is it?

[WingsFan]

The important thing is the 7 Michigan defenders it takes to tackle Najee Harris didn't take online classes.

[Niffla]

Michigan, for a half, actually arguably looked like the better team.

Then Saban probably ripped into his team at the half, the Tide got serious, and then reality set in.

Hard.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Harbaugh, in his five years as HC, has taken M football from a dreadful example of a P5 football team under late Lloyd Carr, Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke to restore the program to exactly were it was under Schembechler, Moller and Carr in his best years. A perennial 9-10 win per season football team with an occasional, VERY occasional, 11-12 win team, those teams routinely losing games in post season play. M football, in today's terms, has never been elite unless you want to count the post civil war era of CFB.

The expectations for Harbaugh were, and remain so, unrealistic. He'd certainly like to go to the CFP and get through osu in the process and has said as much. The one thing I believe to be reasonable is to beat osu every once in a while and five years facing that team and going 0-5 against them is way past "once in a while." So, I can buy that complaint about him. The problem for me is that nobody is beating the elite teams including osu "every once in a while." Sure, there's the occasional dorf but it's usually to teams sneaking up on them while they are playing poorly, get all the luck going against them (osu v. Clemson), victimized by game changing bad officiating (osu v. Clemson, again). You know the litany of low probability occurrences that wreck a season. Lose straight up to a good opponent in a competitive, fairly officiated game with the starting line-up healthy? Those perennial elite 4 to 5 teams? Not on the regular and most of the time not at all. Those elite teams have gotten to where they are by mostly great recruiting, winning with those recruits, putting dudes in the NFL and sustaining their place at the top of the hill through all of that. It's hard to knock them off that hill these days, easier in the past.

So, Michigan football isn't playing at the elite level and given the circumstances at M, given my view of the CFB playing field being less than level, given how M recruits in the modern era, it's not going to get there. I'll buy issues with JH on recruiting and maybe the player development area but, his positives as a coach and human being outweigh any negatives, IMO. YMMV and I respect alternate view's of Jim Harbaugh's value to the Michigan football program even though it's pretty much wrong headed.

[WingsFan]

[iam416]

[WingsFan]

I have already said his high point was 'JT was Short' like the Charlie Weis 'Bush Push' both losses vs top 1 or 2

[paul daugherity]

"Harbaugh, in his five years as HC, has taken M football from a dreadful example of a P5 football team under late Lloyd Carr, Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke to restore the program to exactly were it was under Schembechler, Moller and Carr in his best years. A perennial 9-10 win per season football team with an occasional, VERY occasional, 11-12 win team, those teams routinely losing games in post season play. M football, in today's terms, has never been elite unless you want to count the post civil war era of CFB."

JB, as a counter to your statement above, I note that Harbaugh has won 72% of his games at UM (which is a little skewed, since there are now 12 regular season games versus the 11 in the Bo, Mo and Carr years), whereas Carr won 76%, Mo 73% and Bo 78%. Carr had 10 or more wins 6 times in his 13 seasons as head coach, Mo had 1 10 win season in 5 years, and Bo won 10 or more games 11 times in 21 seasons. Bo and Carr effectively had a 10+ win season for half of their coaching tenure.

While I would agree that UM did not win multiple national titles, they were always in the mix, along with about 9-10 other schools. They also were competetive and very rarely run off the field. Not to mention the multiple conference titles that each of them won. I think Harbaugh has equalled Mo, but not Carr or Bo.

Yes, Harbaugh has done good things. He has brought UM back to respectability from the RR and Hoke days. He beats teams that he should beat. He has pushed MSU back, and he throttled ND this year. But, the expectation when Harbaugh was hired was he was elite, and would bring UM to elite status, competing for Big Ten titles and spots in the playoff on a regular basis. In fact, I recall many back and forths between you and The Talent about whether Harbaugh was better or would be better than Urban Meyer. Harbuagh is paid as an elitle coach. There is no doubt in my mind that he was brought in and expected to be elite, and he has fallen short of that. And realizing that, and that UM is stuck with him for the indeterminate future, in my opinion, there is a lot of after the fact justification for why he isn't elite and that that is ok. I'm willing to admit I was wrong. I thought he was a home run hire and would get UM to elite status. He hasn't, and I don't think he will, and I was incorrect about his coaching ability. He is good, but not elite. It has been disappointing to watch it unfold as it has.

[maxreturn]

"Harbaugh, in his five years as HC, has taken M football from a dreadful example of a P5 football team under late Lloyd Carr, Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke to restore the program to exactly were it was under Schembechler, Moller and Carr in his best years. A perennial 9-10 win per season football team with an occasional, VERY occasional, 11-12 win team, those teams routinely losing games in post season play. M football, in today's terms, has never been elite unless you want to count the post civil war era of CFB."

JB, as a counter to your statement above, I note that Harbaugh has won 72% of his games at UM (which is a little skewed, since there are now 12 regular season games versus the 11 in the Bo, Mo and Carr years), whereas Carr won 76%, Mo 73% and Bo 78%. Carr had 10 or more wins 6 times in his 13 seasons as head coach, Mo had 1 10 win season in 5 years, and Bo won 10 or more games 11 times in 21 seasons. Bo and Carr effectively had a 10+ win season for half of their coaching tenure.

While I would agree that UM did not win multiple national titles, they were always in the mix, along with about 9-10 other schools. They also were competetive and very rarely run off the field. Not to mention the multiple conference titles that each of them won. I think Harbaugh has equalled Mo, but not Carr or Bo.

Yes, Harbaugh has done good things. He has brought UM back to respectability from the RR and Hoke days. He beats teams that he should beat. He has pushed MSU back, and he throttled ND this year. But, the expectation when Harbaugh was hired was he was elite, and would bring UM to elite status, competing for Big Ten titles and spots in the playoff on a regular basis. In fact, I recall many back and forths between you and The Talent about whether Harbaugh was better or would be better than Urban Meyer. Harbuagh is paid as an elitle coach. There is no doubt in my mind that he was brought in and expected to be elite, and he has fallen short of that. And realizing that, and that UM is stuck with him for the indeterminate future, in my opinion, there is a lot of after the fact justification for why he isn't elite and that that is ok. I'm willing to admit I was wrong. I thought he was a home run hire and would get UM to elite status. He hasn't, and I don't think he will, and I was incorrect about his coaching ability. He is good, but not elite. It has been disappointing to watch it unfold as it has.

Couldn't agree more. Even Hoke didn't lose as badly to OSU as Harbaugh has. One other disturbing trend that points to Harbaugh's inferiority as a coach is how poorly his teams have played in the 2nd half. The man is dreadful at making halftime adjustments.

[WingsFan]

When it come to osu and Bowl games yes, very frustrating.

[Jeff Buchanan]

About as frustrating as Bo's post season bowl record I reckon.

[iam416]

You boys ought to read through the OSU thread around the time HARBAUGH!!! was hired. Your expectations were quite high and, IMO, as they should have been.

[Jeff Buchanan]

Then reality set in.