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Michigan State at Michigan, Saturday, November 16th, Noon, EST, FOX/Fox Video

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  • #91
    Tom, I agree with that take entirely. Still, I think larger than life fan expectations for M football under Harbaugh skewed how we saw him as a HC from year 1 through 4. IOW, given the circumstances in those 4 seasons, given his record - which is pretty good - we expected more and those expectations weren't justified.

    This year though, expectations for a solid season were within a credible range - except for maybe the "speed in space" BS that never materialized and probably wasn't going to materialize. I thought the first three games told us some things about the season and the loss at Wisconsin confirmed them. Whatever we credibly expected didn't happen ....... and still, almost at the season's end, the offense looks as disorganized as it did early ....... with the exception that there's a decent run game, albeit knee-jerked into the 2019 O from last season after it became clear that whatever Gattis brought to the table fell flat for reasons we can't be certain about.

    The blowout loss to Wisconsin was inexcusable. That loss demonstrated a lack of preparation that, compared to other team's offensive performances in game 4 of the 2019 season, wasn't at all comparable to teams who we'd like M to be considered favorably with. The PSU game had similar characteristics to those of the Wisconsin loss. Got beat early by a better prepared opponent then too late to the party.

    Looking in the rear view mirror, you have to credit Harbaugh for getting the team to where it is after the disaster it had become through the PSU loss. He's improved a run game that can play conservatively to Brown's D and that approach produces boring wins that lack any kind of sustained excitement. M's offense is hard to watch even though it is achieving what I suspect Harbaugh has fallen back on. But there is no way Michigan football can compete with the top programs that we would hope it would be able to do - not with the approach we're seeing and not with the QB play that may or may not be Patterson's fault. So, yeah, M is not going to beat osu that plays at an entirely different level than M. The worrisome trend though is that M football under Harbaugh, leaves it increasingly vulnerable to teams with less talent but more innovative use of it. It might be worst case but I can see Dantonio doing what he does best subduing M's sludge-fart offense and surviving Don Brown's defense to eke out an "upset" win that we should be able to see coming. Worse, M could suffer the same fate at the hands of Tom Allen's very decent and innovative, IU team.
    Mission to CFB's National Championship accomplished. But the shine on the NC Trophy is embarrassingly wearing off. It's M B-Ball ..... or hockey or volley ball or name your college sport favorite time ...... until next year.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Tom W View Post
      It's just an observation, but if you work with someone for a few years and their performance becomes increasingly disorganized and confused, then there's a bigger problem at hand.

      I wouldn't necessarily characterize the first four years, at least up to the debacle in Columbus, as particularly incoherent. Bad breaks, back QB decisions and flat out being less talented than the opposition could explain almost all of the frustrating losses in that time frame.

      This year is different. Players are underutilized, in game management is particularly poor and preparation just doesn't seem to be there. This is what makes what happens tomorrow so much more interesting. It is probably the most important game of the year (forget osu- they are on a different talent level).

      Michigan SHOULD win this game- decisively. I'll venture to say that they MUST win this game. If Harbaugh cannot design a robust gameplan and put the right pieces in place to execute it for THIS game, then he really shouldn't be coaching this team anymore.
      To be fair, though your big-picture take is right there, I don't know that you could say that the performance is becoming increasingly disorganized and confused. I'd say that performance from December to September has been terrible. Harbaugh hasn't found the right staff adjustments on offense save for Warinner, and the coaching staff hasn't gone into the season with a good plan suited to the players and their abilities. Decisions made in December seem to be rash and emotional and reactionary.

      I would say however that in the past two years they've done a good job correcting for that during the season. For me personally, the big question is whether they can make the right calls this offseason. No more Gattis hires, and can't go in with a situation like with Drevno/Frey. (Could see one coming if Taggart comes in some undefined offensive role and Gattis stays). Need to sort out how the offense is going to be coordinated and how plays are going to be called, and make those calls wisely at that time of year.

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      • #93
        I have little faith in Harbaugh in a game like this. UM should win rather handily but D'Antonio will undoubtedly have a trick play or two up his sleeve and make it much closer than it should be.

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        • #94
          Hack.....did you mean to quote me or Tom? I think you were talking about my post. Anyway, fair points. I too worry about the off season choices regarding staff changes, if any.
          Mission to CFB's National Championship accomplished. But the shine on the NC Trophy is embarrassingly wearing off. It's M B-Ball ..... or hockey or volley ball or name your college sport favorite time ...... until next year.

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          • #95
            Tom's.

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            • #96
              Yes, was wondering where I mentioned being disorganized and confused.. Not that I disagree, of course, but credit where credit is due.

              I will say this about "expectations" though. I don't think we've ever seen a more cruel period of failed expectations than we've had for the last 5 years. We've gone from expecting trips to Indy (with some basis in reality, I think) to expecting to play sloppy to the point of danger against a 4-5 Sparty team that looks to have completely checked out.
              Last edited by Tom W; November 15, 2019, 03:01 PM.

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              • #97
                There has been some confusion over the source of the post containing the words disorganized and confused.

                Thanks to the sensible organization of threads and posts in this forum, I've been able to see that there's been more than one post using them.

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                • #98
                  I will say this about "expectations" though. I don't think we've ever seen a more cruel period of failed expectations than we've had for the last 5 years.

                  '15 - solid outcome.
                  '16 - failed expectations, or just a historic screwjob?
                  '17 - injuries, but also inability to put a good QB on the field
                  '18 - failed expectations
                  '19 - inability to put a good QB on the field

                  In conclusion, it's a one-off if O'Korn just doesn't develop or if Patterson just doesn't develop, but it's two of them. Excellent QB play was central to the expectations. So I agree that it's been cruel, and that failed expectations are certainly a part of that, but I also think that the dirty reffing in '16 has defined the program since it happened. Even if you think The Spot was fair, give me back any one of those four 50/50 flags thrown on third downs that ended two of our drives and extended to of theirs. Just one of those flags not being thrown and Michigan would have won and gone on to the playoff and everything looks different.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by hack View Post
                    In conclusion, it's a one-off if O'Korn just doesn't develop or if Patterson just doesn't develop, but it's two of them. Excellent QB play was central to the expectations. So I agree that it's been cruel, and that failed expectations are certainly a part of that, but I also think that the dirty reffing in '16 has defined the program since it happened. Even if you think The Spot was fair, give me back any one of those four 50/50 flags thrown on third downs that ended two of our drives and extended to of theirs. Just one of those flags not being thrown and Michigan would have won and gone on to the playoff and everything looks different.
                    Exactly. That 2016 fuckedfest in Columbus didn't just crash a season's expectations. It defined the era.
                    Usually, breaks and bad calls even out... we're kinda still waiting here.

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                    • It led to the league office taking the unusual step of calling in Teddy Greenstein to take dictation, and a whole bunch of other reporters finding out thing that looked bad and mostly confirmed how little anybody knows about the process. I don't know why that happened, but I know that it happened and you can see the lasting damage. That's a main reason I don't think Harbaugh should be fired. He did his job in '16. Other reasons are that I don't see who would be obviously better, and that I don't understand why Harbaugh went from genius (maybe overrated but not by tons) to doofus. So, let's hope that this offseason he gets it right, and that we finally see an QB developed in house taking the field and playing well.

                      That'll be dicey this offseason, especially with the 2021 five-star not able to play. I'd imagine it's going to be awfully hard for Harbaugh to recruit QBs pretty soon if he can't show results with the ones he has.
                      Last edited by hack; November 15, 2019, 04:27 PM.

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                      • Before last week, I would have figured the best way for Michigan to win this game would be for Brown to get after Lewerke on every play. Contain Lewerke, and you beat MSU. However against Illinois, the Spartans found a bit of a running game. I believe they rushed for nearly 200 yards. So, the running game cannot be ignored.

                        I think it comes down to the defenses. Whichever defense plays the best, gets the win for their team. Of course I'm going to say Michigan wins, but I don't think they'll cover. Dantonio will have a few tricks that keeps things close.

                        Michigan 23
                        MSU 16

                        I don't always roll a joint, but when I do, its usually my ankle

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                        • F*** spartie!

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                          • Sparty can get yards on the ground (Collins is very good) but they can't protect their QB to have any passing game, Lewerke could look way better if he had time to throw. Brown will kill whoever their QB is and live with whatever ground game they have. I don't see Sparty sustaining any drives, they could get in the end zone but they'll likely need short fields.

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                            • That's exactly right.
                              Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
                              Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.

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                              • Sparty wearing their helmets off the bus lol Ill bet they take a TD or more lead

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