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**WM Wolverine** · September 5, 2019, 12:55 PM

Army might have some long drives but still see them struggling to finish them in the end some. Pretty unlikely they score 17+ without some good fortune...

Army limiting M's offensive possessions is likely but M should still score 30+ if they aren't giving the ball away.. 34-13 M with more potential to win 48-10 than a close game that's 30-21...

**Jeff Buchanan** · September 5, 2019, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by WM Wolverine View Post

Army might have some long drives but still see them struggling to finish them in the end some. Pretty unlikely they score 17+ without some good fortune...

I'm not entirely convinced that the ball handling skills required in the Gattis offense have been completely mastered. If Harbaugh, on a strategic basis, chooses to keep the playbook open and practice it, I could see Patterson putting the ball on the turf a couple of times. I could also see Harbaugh, understanding Army's approach and wishing to avoid the risk of turnovers in that context, might just revert to his 2018 offense. That will make this game nearly unwatchable. I'm mentally ready for that. I'll be in the stadium.

Originally posted by WM Wolverine View Post

Army limiting M's offensive possessions is likely but M should still score 30+ if they aren't giving the ball away.. 34-13 M with more potential to win 48-10 than a close game that's 30-21...

What I said. 52% easy, not close win (my score pic 48-14; yours 48-10). 48% rough outing and a closer M victory than we'd like (my score pic 33-22; yours 30-21).

You need to be more creative, WM.

**WM Wolverine** · September 5, 2019, 01:42 PM

I never read parts longer than three paragraphs so you can't say anything you said influenced me. ;)

**Jeff Buchanan** · September 5, 2019, 01:45 PM

Heh ....... pay attention!

**Jeff Buchanan** · September 5, 2019, 02:13 PM

This just came out a while ago at mgo. Fe-Fi-Fo-Film of Army. It's a good review but the thing I think you should look at is the 2nd video. Go to the link, click After the Jump, then scroll down to the video featuring a .gif that repeats how Army blocks one of there run plays. The author, Seth, thinks this is an illegal block. I don't think it is. The rules are complicated. See the 2nd link below (I couldn't get the .gif to copy and post here) Linesman? Is this a legal block - the C blocks high and the G blocks low.?

Fee Fi Foe Film: Army Offense 2019 | mgoblog

https://mgoblog.com/content/fee-fi-foe-film-army-offense-2019#read-more

Resources: My charting, Army game notes, Army roster, CFBStats, Bill C's preview data The first team to ever think to play entire separate offensive and defensive units was Fritz Crisler's Michigan in 1945. Thanks to the War, Crisler was still down to mostly 17-year-olds (because they couldn't be drafted) and due to face Army, which could draft anyone's stars they wanted, offer "you can play football instead of fight a war" to recruits, and had two Heisman winners in their backfield. Michigan's platooners didn't win, but they made a 7-7 tie last deep into the favorite's grumbly hour, the only guys all season to give Army a game. The Black Knights never forgave us for ending the "let's thump our heads together then sit in mud for 30 minutes" era of football, heralding a future where a guy like Tom Brady can play it. Since then Army's had just one goal in mind: make football so ugly, so cheap, so abysmally unwatchable, that nobody will ever want to play it again. Last year they had 10 wins, took Kyler Murray's Oklahoma to overtime, and crushed Houston in a bowl. Last quarter, they did this: Football: The Army hates it. Almost as much as they do knees. The film: Rice, because they've only played one game. Minus about 10 plays that didn't make it into the cuts available. Personnel: My diagram, which you have to picture a lot more condense because the quarterback actually squats behind the center. PDF version, full-size version (or click on the image) This is actually a lot of starters to return for a service academy. The regular fullback, Connor Slomka, is dealing with a pulled something and missed the Rice game; he's questionable for Michigan. He's also a big loss; he's their primary ballcarrier, and the primary blocker when he isn't, and backup fullback Sandon McCoy is just a guy back there. There isn't a lot of difference between the A-Back Kell Walker, a speedster who's occasionally asked to block cut a knee, and the T-Back Artice Hobbs, who's slightly more likely to be the pitch man, had one wicked run where he shouldered a linebacker out of his way, and often splits out to wideout. Both receivers are just guys, and rotate evenly with tight end Zach Saum or just pretend to be tight ends themselves. Yes, that's a 6'2/265 senior left tackle and a 6'6/300 center. When asked to pass block this line falls apart. When asked to do anything but cut block, most of this line falls apart. Everyone but the center will start low and as far off the line of scrimmage as they can. Center Peyton Reeder will start lower, jam his head into a DT, and when he's engaged the others will use the running head start to go for guys' knees. [After THE JUMP: Boy do they hate knees]

How to figure out college football’s rules on cut blocks

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2018/8/30/17472936/block-below-waist-rule-ncaa

Chop blocks, where teammates block a defender high and low, are always illegal. The rules around cut blocks are more complex.

**lineygoblue** · September 5, 2019, 04:56 PM

Jeff, I can't get the videos to play but I'll answer the best I can.

When I was at the Umpire spot, my flag flew whenever I saw a guy being blocked both high and low. As far as I know, its illegal at all levels.

Some coaches try to teach it where the high guy hits the defender first, disengages, then the low guy submarines him while he's still off balance. IMO, that's still an illegal chop block.

Wiz may want to weigh in on this, because he has more experience in the upper levels than I do. But as for me, I flagged it. Better safe than sorry.

**Jeff Buchanan** · September 5, 2019, 08:55 PM

Here's what the .gif shows:

The Army C engages the Rice (inside) DT (not a 3-tech) immediately after the snap leveraging him outside. The R G hits the same DT but the initial contact is above the DT's hip and he does not slide down. The play is designed to have the ball carrier go into the space being created by these two blocks. It does so and gains about 4 yards. Both Army hits are well within the 5 yards downfield limit where those kinds of blocks are legal.

The key point is that the Army R G who appears to hit the Rice DT low and in a chop block fashion isn't doing anything illegal as long as he hits the engaged player inside the 5 yard downfield limit, above the waist and doesn't slide his arms down. That's how the rule reads.

**lineygoblue** · September 5, 2019, 09:38 PM

IMO, what you're describing sounds legal.

In our clinics, we were always told that for a lineman to properly execute a LEGAL below the waist block, in the free blocking zone, it pretty much had to be done on the initial charge of the offensive line, or in other words, right after the snap. Why? Because the ball wasn't going to be in the free blocking zone very long, and for the block to be legal, the block AND the ball both had to be in the free blocking zone. If the ball has left the free blocking zone, then no more below the waist blocking is allowed.

What you are describing sounds to me like a legal double team block, which is completely within the rules, as long as both men are contacting the defender above the waist.

**THE_WIZARD_** · September 7, 2019, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by lineygoblue View Post

Jeff, I can't get the videos to play but I'll answer the best I can.

When I was at the Umpire spot, my flag flew whenever I saw a guy being blocked both high and low. As far as I know, its illegal at all levels.

Some coaches try to teach it where the high guy hits the defender first, disengages, then the low guy submarines him while he's still off balance. IMO, that's still an illegal chop block.

Wiz may want to weigh in on this, because he has more experience in the upper levels than I do. But as for me, I flagged it. Better safe than sorry.

Here is straight from the NCAA Football Rules Book regarding chop blocks...

Chop Block

ARTICLE 3. A chop block is a high-low or low-high combination block by

any two players against an opponent (not the ball carrier) anywhere on the

opponent initiates the contact. (A.R. 9-1-10-V)

Now just a note...I am not involved in NCAA Officiating anymore...gave it up before last fall...long story short...getting married and moving to Lincoln and need to stay home more lol...but I am now an official observer for the Nebraska Schools Activities Association so I now grade out a crew every week which is interesting. Now as to the interpretation of the chop bock rule...the rules for NFHS (high school) and the NCAA are virtually worded identically. Remember...chop block and a block below the waist are two different animals. Blocking below the waist is legal under certain circumstances...it's legal if the ball is in the free blocking zone...and the players involved were in the zone at the snap. Once the ball leaves the free blocking zone blocking below the waist is illegal entirely. Now a chop block is the hit 'em high and hit 'em low scenario...doesn't matter which came first...and doesn't matter if the ball is in the zone or not...it's ALWAYS illegal. Now if a blocker hits a guy high and slides down and rolls the guy technically this is legal because the contact started above the waist. UNL used to do this blocking technique but frankly you don't see it much anymore except from teams like Air Force (who I saw a LOT) and Army. If there is any separation during the block though...it's illegal. I don't know too many lineman who can do this...and as liney indicated...we are not going to be able to focus on every single engagement so if we see a guy getting cut late in a play on the line it's going to get a flag. There is actually a movement at both levels to eliminate ALL blocks below the waist...and I see that passing in the near future. Too may knees blown out by these blocks. Most teams at both levels now are in shot gun so the free blocking zone disintegrates immediately...so the low block MUST be immediate. I think HARBAUGH!!!! will be on the crew today about this...and probably will be a hot topic of conversation with the crew and the coaches pre-game. Should be interesting.

**JRB** · September 7, 2019, 11:38 AM

Nice to see Daxton Hill make an appearance. May it be the first of many.

7-7, as the fake punt gets Michigan back in it.

**WM Wolverine** · September 7, 2019, 11:44 AM

That fumble is 100% on the LT who never even touched the defensive end.

**JRB** · September 7, 2019, 11:45 AM

Christian Turner didn't get much of the blitzer, either.

**maxreturn** · September 7, 2019, 11:51 AM

So Patterson says in the post game presser last week ...."gotta take better care of the ball". Time to put up or shut up.

**JRB** · September 7, 2019, 11:59 AM

You've got to be kidding me...

**WM Wolverine** · September 7, 2019, 12:00 PM

Given the ball away 3 times in what is likely a very low possession game... Refs also taken 7 points off the scoreboard... This is how you play a close game against an opponent you should beat by 3 scores.

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Michigan V. Army, Saturday, September 7th, Noon EDT, FOX/Fox Video

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