U of M thread (in the Lions Forum) :)

[chemiclord]

The problem here is that you're shaping events around your pre-determined "Carr pulls the strings" narrative.

All I can say is... you don't understand how deep Carr's fingers have been in the U-M program, and how terrible of a person he really is. He played the gruff guy with a heart of gold act pretty damn well.

"Pretending" to court Harbaugh? Look at Brandon's early comments on Harbaugh. Obviously overtures had been made behind the scenes and the word came back that Harbaugh was looking toward the NFL; Harbaugh then proceeded to meet with SF and Miami before ultimately signing with the Niners.

"Pretending" to court Miles? Brandon personally met with Miles, and I believe the job would have been his if he had wanted it. Was an offer made? At Brandon's level, you don't make a formal offer unless you know it's going to be accepted. Miles decided staying in Louisiana was a better fit, and even managed to get a new contract extension from LSU out of it.

As I understand it, the U-M never made an offer to Harbaugh. Miles says he met with the U-M once, and an offer was never made. Brandon says neither men were offered the job. So, you are saying that the U-M just... didn't try? They gave up before even making an offer? Okay... if that's the story you want to stick with.

Here's the bottom line: head coach at Michigan is still an elite job, even if it's not the best job in football. Both Harbaugh and Miles had ample reason to turn it down -- the former wanting to go the NFL and was likely never going to be a hotter prospect to do so, and the latter staying with a powerhouse program that is expected to compete for national championships *right now* in a division (the SEC) that does nothing but breed national champions.

If you took any coach in the country and offered them a choice between (a) coaching an NFL team (b) coaching a strong SEC team and (c) coaching Michigan -- or even anywhere else in the Big Ten -- I'd be willing to bet that Michigan comes in third just about every time. What that means to someone in Brandon's position is that you're either going to have to sell a coach the Michigan Kool-Aid or you're going to have to pick a coach who simply had fewer options. With Hoke, it's a little bit of each, and I think he'll run a better overall program than Rodriguez.

Michigan is probably an elite position... we don't really know, because Michigan really hasn't tried to find out. Each "national search" really wasn't national, nor was it much of a search.

Hoke doing better than Rodriguez is pretty much a given. The question is, will he do well enough to keep the factions in Ann Arbor from turning on him. I just don't see how he will.

[froot loops]

Chemiclord is laying it on real thick with the Lloyd is a bad guy meme,

[FVD]

I don't know why ya'll are complaining. He went from Hilton Head to San Diego. That's nationwide right there. Sea to Shining Sea!

[chemiclord]

Chemiclord is laying it on real thick with the Lloyd is a bad guy meme,

Because he is. That's really are there is to it.

And I probably should clarify that Carr doesn't pull "all the strings" more that he is one person of many pulling some of the strings. I focus on Carr because of personal experience and he's probably the douchebaggiest of the bunch.

Douchebaggiest? I think I made up a word there. Oh well.

[froot loops]

I have speculated he will fail miserably.

Let me put it this way. We'll have Coach A, and Coach B.

Coach A:

Career record upon hire; 105-62-2
8 conference championships
3-3 Bowl record

Coach B:

Career record upon hire; 47-50
0 conference championships
1-1 Bowl record

Coach A was largely reviled and spat upon by the U-M faithful the moment he held his first press conference.

Coach B has the "full support" of the school and magically now is going to be the one to turn the team around.

History suggests that will not be the case.

This post is a good way to show how record sometimes is not a good indicator, because coach A pretty much stunk at all facets at Michigan.

[LionsWolverines]

Coach B has the "full support" of the school and magically now is going to be the one to turn the team around.

History suggests that will not be the case.

But here's the thing, there's not really that much to turn around anymore. The team was 7-5 and is returning almost everyone on both sides of the ball. Brady hoke doesn't really have to turn anything around, he just has to win one or two more games than RR did last year, and he'll be hailed as some kind of savior. The reality being that we were always going to win 8/9 next year and all we've done is blow up recruiting and likely the offense so that we could go right back to where Carr had us. (9-11 wins a year, with a few losses to teams we have no business losing to) The point of bringing in a spread guy was that the spread wins Championships, and the pro style gets you beat by USC in embarrasing fashion in the Rose Bowl.

I have no doubt that brady hoke, if he is even a mediocre coach, will win 8/9 games with this team. But after 4 years of Hoke recruiting, we'll be right back to where we were instead of the notch upward we were looking for when Carr retired. Yes we sucked for a few years under RR, but we were going through the largest program shift we'd ever seen, and as we were poised to finally take the next step, we seem to have started over, and with a guy who seems to have less upside. Look at the Stanford v Oregon game, the Rose Bowl, even the NC game, and try to tell me that basketball on grass can't win.

My take was always, Fire RR for harbuagh or Miles (or maybe a non AQ guy who has shown himself to be elite), as those guys are upgrades. Firing RR for Brady Hoke just seems like blowing shit up for the sake of blowing shit up. And it puts us right back where we started.

[calijawn]

It's not just "one or two more games", it's games that matter. Hoke was quick to call out the Big Three (Notre Dame, MSU, and OSU), and Nebraska will also be another measuring stick.

[calijawn]

And I probably should clarify that Carr doesn't pull "all the strings" more that he is one person of many pulling some of the strings. I focus on Carr because of personal experience and he's probably the douchebaggiest of the bunch.

Ah, now we're getting to the heart of it... care to elaborate? Come clean, my boy, confession is good for the soul.

[nhwbrooklyn]

I can't wait to start playing Nebraska every year.

[Niffla]

Yep, it's not 9 wins versus 7 wins. It's about the conference record and games vs ranked opposition. Rich was what, 6-18 in conference? 0-12 vs BT teams with winning records? And how many wins over ranked teams did he have in three years? One (and even that one he was down 19-0 at the half)?

In those massive areas of complete and utter failure by Rich Rod is where Hoke will be ultimately graded.

[gjdodger]

This post is a good way to show how record sometimes is not a good indicator, because coach A pretty much stunk at all facets at Michigan.

A point I made earlier is that RichRod's record at WVA was actually a little bit better than Harbaugh's at SDSU and Stanford.

[chemiclord]

Ah, now we're getting to the heart of it... care to elaborate? Come clean, my boy, confession is good for the soul.

Gregg Henson posted on his blog an overview on the factions that are dueling in Ann Arbor. It's even in this thread. It's probably more anti-Carr than the reality though.

http://gregghenson.typepad.com/gregg_hensoncom/2011/01/nobody-knows-anything-about-harbaugh-and-his-next-move.html

WARNING: Long-ish post incoming.

I think Lloyd Carr is an incorrigible jackass that has little respect for anyone. People under him are more tools to him than something worth regarding. He treated the media with utter disdain for attempting to do their jobs (although in fairness they often failed), and was very quick to turn on anyone who he felt gave him even the barest slight.

I will try to avoid my personal feelings pertaining to the quality of person I think Lloyd Carr beyond this point (they might slip out on occasion, and I apologize ahead of time): I'm going to try to be as true to the events that happened as I know them.

The fight for succession was brewing as the prevailing thought was that Carr was getting tired of coaching, this would have been around 2005 or so. Miles began jockeying for the position around that time among members of the Athletic Department.

Carr did not appreciate Miles stamping for a position Carr hadn't even vacated yet... and that started the beef between those two, a relationship that wasn't exactly smooth to begin with (Carr and Miles weren't exactly friends at any point). Carr felt that the "Bo Camp" was trying to force him out and hire Miles (they probably were, if I am to be perfectly honest).

Carr took Harbaugh's comments about how the university led athletes down easier academic paths (a practice done by pretty much every major program) as a direct insult against him and his policies.

But souring the pool against Harbaugh wasn't something he had to concert. Members of University's administration coined the name "Benedict Harbaugh" for that. After all, Michigan was the greatest and the best at all things. Implying they were no better than anyone else was a cardinal sin. I suspect it's a sentiment that still is prevalent to this day.

Carr started gathering his own supporters with the goal to secure his own legacy. One of those was Dr. Coleman, who Carr started investing large amounts of time and money to her charity efforts. Up until 2005, he gave enough to keep up friendly appearances. Afterwards, he started investing a lot more (Pat Caputo claimed up to five times the dollar amounts, I'm not sure how he would know that, and it's not something I can verify).

Carr felt that when he stepped down that he deserved the right to name his successor (at that time, Ron English). Those that wanted a return to Bo's coaching tree didn't like that idea (the fact that Ron English was a shitty D-coordinator that would have been an even shitter head coach was sadly a secondary reason). Come August of 2006, I dropped out of my internship and started freelance writing, and that's where my personal experience ends.

I can't say anything directly about either the Rodriguez hire or the Hoke hire beyond what I have heard second hand and infer from my own experience, so I very well might be completely wrong about my takes on the matter. Maybe things have changed and your take on the matter is completely true. My experience simply suggests otherwise.

Perhaps I've been too belligerent about it, though. Shocking, huh?

[WingsFan]

Brady Hoke assembles his coaching staff. You got a problem with that?

[jaadam4]

LOL!! I've been thinking that for awhile myself Wings!!

[jaadam4]

I finally watched some of the presser. Yeah Hoke wont be winning any public speaking awards anytime soon but I like him. He really really sounds like he loves the school.

I love how he kept saying "That School in Ohio" and how he grew up there and just hated OSU. I like him.

He's got my support.