U of M thread (in the Lions Forum) :)

[froot loops]

That's delusional with a capital D. Harbaugh inherited a lot of good players from Hoke. The 2017 NFL draft alone had the most players ever drafted in Michigan history with 11(10 were Hoke guys). The first 3 seasons of Harbaugh's program had 14 players drafted of Hoke's players. Even last year had a Brady Hole stalwart recruit drafted with Chase Winovich.

Thinking that Harbs was dealt a bad hand is pure folly. He has been given all of the resources he has needed. His coaching has been awful in the big games, that ain't Rich or Brady's fault.

[edindetroit]

That's delusional with a capital D. Harbaugh inherited a lot of good players from Hoke. The 2017 NFL draft alone had the most players ever drafted in Michigan history with 11(10 were Hoke guys). The first 3 seasons of Harbaugh's program had 14 players drafted of Hoke's players. Even last year had a Brady Hole stalwart recruit drafted with Chase Winovich.

Thinking that Harbs was dealt a bad hand is pure folly. He has been given all of the resources he has needed. His coaching has been awful in the big games, that ain't Rich or Brady's fault.

Ok

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[chemiclord]

Harbaugh has had all the resources (both in money and talent) that a coach at Michigan can hope to get.

The problem is that the school (and its fans) think that Harbaugh should be getting more out of those resources.

I don't see it. The program, as it stands, has a ceiling of 10-2. The next coach is going to have the very same resources, and the very same ceiling. The golden era is done, and I don't see it coming back. Accept that you are going to be Stanford and that's the best you can hope for. You're not going to beat "Ohio" more than once in a blue moon, and Wolvy needs to accept that.

[froot loops]

He should be getting more out of what he's been given. He has been given a big pot of money to hire the best assistants and do whatever and he has largely squandered it. Chemiclord has a point about not getting into the top echelon that Alabama or Clemson occupy. That might not be in the cards, but they can be better than they have been. He has not been a good in game coach, he is very good at Bo Schembechler cosplay though. And that is really more important than results on the field.

[chemiclord]

Sure. But is it 30 points a game more, which is what teams in that top tier are beating Michigan by?

I don't think so. The improvements that a better coach could get would be in the margins, but probably not the W-L record.

[froot loops]

Maybe, I wouldn't say they have tried every coach. They tried a failure in Rich Rodriguez who has not done a damn thing since he left WVU. Hoke was just mediocre and Harbaugh hasn't been good. He's not recruiting like they are paying for. Does anybody get the idea that he is a tireless recruiter? I think he is pulling in the Michigan classes an average recruiter would bring on. He could just be a highly overrated Michigan Man.

Look at Alabama, they went through about 7 coaches after Bear and only Stallings was worth a shit. When they hired Saban people laughed at the overreaction of the hire, it more than turned out. Things change all the time, there used to be a point where Miami, FSU, Florida and Nebraska traded spots in the top 5 perennially. Its OK to say Harbaugh has not been as good as advertised. He pulled a "5 star" player in Patterson and that guy wasn't more than serviceable.

[chemiclord]

Well, what I saw were teams in Columbus and Tuscaloosa who had 2nd stringers that were position to position better than Michigan's starters.

Is coaching part of that? Yeah. But at some point you also have to accept that the real talent isn't coming to Ann Arbor in the numbers they would need to keep up with the "top tier" squads... and I don't see any real reason to think that will change. The time where Michigan had a recruiting edge due to exposure that only they and 15 other schools could offer isn't coming back. Now 100 schools can offer that.

[froot loops]

That might be right, but doesn't mean JIm Harbaugh is maximizing Michigan's recruiting potential. They are on something like their 4th recruiting director. Everything you say might be correct, but there is a chance that Harbaugh just isn't that good at recruiting the talent and a lot of what he has done has been wasted energy on crony assistants like Pep Hamilton. The coach matters a lot in getting talent. OSU has made the jump purely because Urban Meyer was a tireless recruiter and he upped the talent base at OSU. If Urban Meyer were ever to coach at Michigan he would do exactly the same thing, there is no doubt in my mind on that.

[jaadam4]

[froot loops]

You are missing out on some good conversation Chad.

[chemiclord]

That might be right, but doesn't mean JIm Harbaugh is maximizing Michigan's recruiting potential. They are on something like their 4th recruiting director. Everything you say might be correct, but there is a chance that Harbaugh just isn't that good at recruiting the talent and a lot of what he has done has been wasted energy on crony assistants like Pep Hamilton. The coach matters a lot in getting talent. OSU has made the jump purely because Urban Meyer was a tireless recruiter and he upped the talent base at OSU. If Urban Meyer were ever to coach at Michigan he would do exactly the same thing, there is no doubt in my mind on that.

Possibly.

But it's not impossible to think Urban Meyer would ALSO have trouble convincing players in Ohio (where the only real remaining solid pipeline of elite level talent in the Midwest exists), that they want to go to "that school up north." Michigan has traditionally been able to make up the difference by courting the 4 and low 5-star talent from other areas of the country during the era of big-broadcast television... but now that every school and their sisters has their own TV deal that can get players into scout's eyes... why would they go to that dirty little part of Michigan when they can stay closer to home and possibly get even MORE exposure because they won't be a big fish in a bigger pond?

The pipelines to make Michigan a national championship contender just aren't there anymore, and I don't see a scenario where they come back, either. Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, or Jesus Christ Superstar isn't going to change that.

Michigan is going the way of Harvard and all the Ivy League schools, where there are simply more appealing places for the elite talent to go that won't ride them as hard academically. Wolvy needs to accept that.

[froot loops]

You actually have to recruit Ohio though. One thing Harbs hasn't made a priority is recruiting that state. It seems like he has sunk more recruiting resources into New Jersey than Ohio. The first thing Ryan Day did when he was hired was swipe the two guys who did recruit Ohio for Michigan with Mattison and Washington. It didn't appear that he fought to keep Partridge.

Michigan isn't going the way of Ivys, he just isn't a great recruiter. I think he has tried to go the way of gimmicks to recruit. he mistake you are making is thinking he is doing the best that can be expected on the recruiting trail. Michigan fans make the same mistake, they have built the guy up because he is a Michigan Man and they can't imagine anyone else working out. Urban Meyer would have no problem whatsoever at Michigan recruiting talent, because he is a superlative recruiter, Harbaugh isn't.

[chemiclord]

You actually have to recruit Ohio though. One thing Harbs hasn't made a priority is recruiting that state. It seems like he has sunk more recruiting resources into New Jersey than Ohio. The first thing Ryan Day did when he was hired was swipe the two guys who did recruit Ohio for Michigan with Mattison and Washington. It didn't appear that he fought to keep Partridge.

Michigan isn't going the way of Ivys, he just isn't a great recruiter. I think he has tried to go the way of gimmicks to recruit. he mistake you are making is thinking he is doing the best that can be expected on the recruiting trail. Michigan fans make the same mistake, they have built the guy up because he is a Michigan Man and they can't imagine anyone else working out. Urban Meyer would have no problem whatsoever at Michigan recruiting talent, because he is a superlative recruiter, Harbaugh isn't.

I don't think he's a particularly great recruiter. I just think you overestimate what a great recruiter will be able to bring in. There is no particular advantage that Michigan can lean on anymore in the recruiting race. There's nothing there that's going to entice enough talent to go to Ann Arbor over the multitudes of other places they can go. No one gives a shit about the winged helmet's history.

At the end of the day, a better coach nibbles at the margins. Makes these blowout losses to Ohio and bowl opponents look more respectable. Instead of losing by 30, Wolvy loses by 10-14 and shocks the world every four years or so. But anyone expecting much more than that is setting themselves up for annual disappointment. The best case scenario is Ohio State stumbling with some bad hires and falling back down to earth, and Michigan being able to take advantage, but that's MANY years off.

[Masspartan]

have you checked Harbaugh's salary?

[Masspartan]

just cause you say it doesn't make it true. I'll give UM credit for one thing ... they've got a great PR department and nobody pumps up a fan base and controls false narratives better than they do. Who has more NC's in the last 75 years? Minnesota or Michigan ... or Michigan State for that matter.

And your last sentence is cute considering your school was part of the biggest pay for play scandal in the history of college sports.