U of M thread (in the Lions Forum) :)

[Jamie H]

Yes, you are right. Michigan's current #1 rated recruting class is clear evidence that they can no longer recruit. Kids clearly don't want to play for Michigan anymore.

This is idiotic. Michigan is currently out-recruiting almost everyone in the county. Your made up reasons for why they can no longer recruit are obviously having no bearing on recruting this season, nor will they likely have any bearing on future seasons.

You are free to have opinions that fly directly in the face of reality, just like your opinion that Michigan no longer recruits nationally or that they have somehow failed to recruit nationally over the past decade.

[chemiclord]

But you're actually proving my point:

Navarre (1999)
Breaston (2003)
Perry (2000)

And then you invoke names from even earlier in their history.

The Wolverines have made the bulk of their recruiting in one corridor (SE Michigan/NW Ohio)... a corridor that over the last eight years has been rather weak. This year, it was quite strong.

When that corridor is weak, you have to find elite talent elsewhere, and the Wolverines did a very poor job of doing so over that period.

The proof is in the pudding, as the Wolverines's NFL prospects have dropped off the table. The talent has not been there, and I pin a great deal of blame on Michigan using an antiquated recruiting strategy. You apparently blame it on... nothing. Apparently to you, the talent hasn't dropped off or something.

Has it changed? I don't know. Maybe it has. But one year isn't enough evidence of that.

[SeattleLionsFan]

As usual chemi is spoton. Mike hart is a perfect example. Right alOng with Tom brady

[Jamie H]

What evidence do you have that Michigan's recruting practices are antiquated? Or are you just making that up?

BTW, I already gave you several reasons why the talent pipeline dried up in the late '00's. None of them had to do with antiquated recruting practices. Rodriguez was not a good recruiter in general and targeted players to play in schemes that are not used in the pros. Carr's last few years were filled with uncertainty around the future of the program.

[chemiclord]

As usual chemi is spoton. Mike hart is a perfect example. Right alOng with Tom brady

And again, invoking names from 10+ years ago.

Great job.

[Jamie H]

Michigan has 40 guys in the NFL right now. I just started looking them up alphabetically. Of the first 12, exactly 2 were from Ohio or Michigan. The rest?

NC, IA, IL, FL, GA, CA, NM, PA, GA, IN

But yes, you are right. Michigan clearly does not recruit nationally.

I'm done with this discussion. It was stupid to begin with and has just gotten stupider.

[chemiclord]

What evidence do you have that Michigan's recruting practices are antiquated? Or are you just making that up?

BTW, I already gave you several reasons why the talent pipeline dried up in the late '00's. None of them had to do with antiquated recruting practices. Rodriguez was not a good recruiter in general and targeted players to play in schemes that are not used in the pros. Carr's last few years were filled with uncertainty around the future of the program.

I apologize, I must have missed that.

As for the argument... ya know what? I'll agree its a valid argument. RichRod's classes certainly weren't what Michigan recruited in the past. I'm not sure if the "uncertainty" about Carr has all that much traction though. I would argue that it had more to do with the changes in national exposure.

And I suppose that's at issue; we have two major changes happening at about the same time. We know that Miles used Carr's health as a recruiting pitch, which lends some credence; but during that same period, the number of schools that was getting nationally broadcast games began to balloon.

Maybe the answer lies somewhere in between.

[chemiclord]

Michigan has 40 guys in the NFL right now. I just started looking them up alphabetically. Of the first 12, exactly 2 were from Ohio or Michigan. The rest?

NC, IA, IL, FL, GA, CA, NM, PA, GA, IN

But yes, you are right. Michigan clearly does not recruit nationally.

I'm done with this discussion. It was stupid to begin with and has just gotten stupider.

How many of them were recruited less than 8 years ago? That's the timeframe I'm speaking of.

Yes, Michigan was able to recruit nationally before the explosion of sports networks and national exposure for all. Of course their strategy worked... BACK THEN. Nowadays? Not so much. And that is the problem I'm not sure they've resolved yet.

[Rocky Bleier]

One look at the current roster and you'll see they have no problem attracting out-of-state kids. The quality of out-of-state recruits will improve as the team improves. A lot of recruits from around the country still consider Michigan among their leaders. It's hard for anyone to get kids out of the southeast, but we have players from Arizona, California, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Texas, among other states.

[chemiclord]

One look at the current roster and you'll see they have no problem attracting out-of-state kids. The quality of out-of-state recruits will improve as the team improves. A lot of recruits from around the country still consider Michigan among their leaders. It's hard for anyone to get kids out of the southeast, but we have players from Arizona, California, Maryland, Pennsylvania, Louisiana, Texas, among other states.

This is likely true, but how much of that was RichRod turning away from the standard pipeline to find players that fit the spread offense?

In conclusion, since I'm tiring of this talking through each other as much as Jamie H. is:

I know how it was done in the past, and I don't think that method works so well in a much different college football landscape.

I don't think I am wrong on that score, and I have seen little over the last 8 years or so to suggest I am.

Now, what I don't know is how Michigan is doing things now, and I don't pretend I do. I'm not saying they are going to fail, or have failed, or are failing. I am saying that if they haven't changed, they will continue to have problems consistently getting the talent to remain an upper tier team.

On this, I simply don't know, and don't pretend otherwise. I'm not sure why people are taking is as an attack on the current regime. I don't know what the current regime does, and have said so multiple times.

[Rocky Bleier]

Now, what I don't know is how Michigan is doing things now, and I don't pretend I do. I'm not saying they are going to fail, or have failed, or are failing. I am saying that if they haven't changed, they will continue to have problems consistently getting the talent to remain an upper tier team. I don't know what the current regime does, and have said so multiple times.

And I've told you that many players from around the country are or have been interested in Michigan this recruiting season. Hoke is setting up a base in Michigan and Ohio, as is necessary, but he is also recruiting nationally. So now you know what the current regime is doing.

[Jamie H]

I apologize, I must have missed that.
And I suppose that's at issue; we have two major changes happening at about the same time. We know that Miles used Carr's health as a recruiting pitch, which lends some credence;

It was more than that. We have recruits who said that Carr refused to promise that he wasn't going to retire. So essentially, Carr was telling the truth about the end of his career, and there is almost no question that hurt recruiting.

As for Rodriguez, any recruiting skill he may have had was submarined by 3-9 followed by 5-7.

It seems pretty clear to me. Sick coach + retiring coach + new coach who blows team apart and puts in pro-unfriendly schemes on both O and D + two worst seasons in 40 years = shitty recruiting. I don't think you have to look much deeper than that really.

[froot loops]

at least you still have your fight song

[SeattleLionsFan]

And our couches.

[Masspartan]

Chemi is going all Gonz on the recruiting issue ....