U of M thread (in the Lions Forum) :)

[DanO]

"Here's a newsflash for you: yes, a lot of white people hated MLK."
----------------------No newsflash. I'm aware of that. Did the men in question however? Did they have similar remarks simply because he was black?............or did they not say a fucking thing because they weren't against blacks but against an attitude?????

Here's a newsflash for ya. Not every fucking negative comment about blacks is racially motivated.

GO LIONS "11" !

[gjdodger]

I'm pretty sure he's still one of the bigger draws on tour.

Except for Tiger, and these days I'm not sure of that, he is THE biggest draw. And the Drunk from Dardanelle is a hero down here.

[nhwbrooklyn]

They wouldn't wear white socks? :-)

lol nice

[DanO]

"I remember one of Joe's columns about what a breath of fresh air Joe Frazier was next to that disgusting Cassius Clay fellow."
----------------------------That fucking racist liked one black man over another. What a fucking bigot. Couldn't be that Joe Frazier had the attitude older people respect but must have been the white man hated the fucking nigger Cassius Clay.

GO LIONS "11" !

[*JD*]

I don't really know enough about Joe Falls to comment on what he thought. I get him confused with Izzy the Dopester.

Back to Beckman, he seems off base here to me.

[nhwbrooklyn]

"An out spoken black man rubs many old timers the wrong way still to this day."
-------------------------Surely you jest. I highly doubt they disliked him because he was an outspoken black man. MLK was an outspoken black man. Did they dislike him? The reason they disliked him was he was an outspoken "punk" kid who was a braggart and an ass. Had nothing to do with the fact he was black but the fact he was a young, pompous, arrogant ass never seen before. They believe in respecting your elders and your opponents and not being a cocky son of a bitch. If a white man did the same thing they would hold the same opinion. Has nothing to do with race but age and how a young person should act. If you want to infer they can't accept the young "black" attitude I can go along with that but it's not that they're black it's the attitude. Young white men with the same attitude would get treated the same but it would be overlooked because it's white on white. Everything has to always be about color though when it's a white person being critical of a black. My GOD we have a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOng fucking ways to go.

GO LIONS "11" !

DanO unconscious bias is everywhere and it always will be, it's just the way our brains work. We trust faces and mannerisms and the like if they are simular and familiar to what we were exposed to during our young formative years.

For example just recently 2 MSU students were in a bar fight and drinking under aged in Colorado. They happened to be white. There really wasn't that much uproar. If they had been black what are the chances they would be called "thugs"?

And I'm not saying it's an excuse for anything or that you are perfectly legitimate in not liking a cocky personality type.

[Kstat]

----------------------------That fucking racist liked one black man over another. What a fucking bigot. Couldn't be that Joe Frazier had the attitude older people respect but must have been the white man hated the fucking nigger Cassius Clay.

...why do I get the impression you're projecting?

Jo Frazier had the attitude older people respected. That's hilarious. He barely had any attitude at all. he wasn't very outspoken. Most white folks thought he knew his place, unlike that rabble-rouser Ali fellow.

Outspoken white and outspoken black were treated very differently for centuries, and your attitude only reinforces the point.

When did Joe Falls ever compare two white athletes by attitude? How about the rest of the media, for that matter?

The sad "older people" remark is just another way of saying "white people" in a less controversial tone. How many "older black people" are included in your theory? Can you think of one single instance an older black person publicly bashed the attitudes of MLK or Muhammed Ali? Shit, I'll settle for Jalen Rose or the rest of the fab 5.

You say it's an attitude older people respect but its pretty obvious you mean an attitude white people respect. In fairness to you, I doubt you even realize it.

[DanO]

"The sad "older people" remark is just another way of saying "white people" in a less controversial tone. How many "older black people" are included in your theory?"
--------------------------Ummmmmmmmmm that was a comment based on age and the upbringing of the individuals involved. I'll take the heat on this though cuz I didn't differentiate. I still resent the remark. Quite frankly I have no clue on what older black people's opinion is on the subject. My comment wasn't based on race. It was based on what I know of my culture and what they were brought up on. I didn't realize I had too include what asians thought of the culture white men were brought up on. They may have a different philosophy as well. You continue too make this a black against white thing. That's where the problem lies. I don't have to explain what older black people think because they aren't involved in this case. You however, think I need to consider their opinion while rendering a decison on why older white people think the way they do. No I FUCKING don't. But that's the problem.

GO LIONS "11" !

[Kstat]

My comment wasn't based on race. It was based on what I know of my culture and what they were brought up on.

...then that is precisely influenced by race, and you should stop pretending that it isn't.

I I don't have to explain what older black people think because they aren't involved in this case.

You said older people. You generalized in an attempt to make it seem like a racially neutral viewpoint, which it clearly isn't.

You however, think I need to consider their opinion while rendering a decison on why older white people think the way they do. No I FUCKING don't. But that's the problem.

...can't have it both ways. If this is an age and generational gap, then it speaks for everyone of a certain age, regardless of race. If you want to speak for old white people only, then don't put your foot in your mouth and claim race isn't a factor, since you just specified older white people.

To say the least, I'm amazed anybody would rush to the defense of Joe Falls, but this certainly wasn't the best way to go about doing it.

[DanO]

"...then that is precisely influenced by race, and you should stop pretending that it isn't."
---------------------------------No other races expect younger people to be respectful???? Blacks don't expect this from their children? Asians? Latinos? Ausies? Did you mouth off to your parents?

Let me put this as succinctly as I can. This is about repsect. It wouldn't matter if the person in question was a nigger, a cracker, a whap, a Jap, a fag, a dike, a cocksucker, an asshole, ugly, fat, thin, or any other fucking thing. It has to do with lack of respect............PERIOD! Now, I really don't know if blacks, in general, expect respect from their younger people but white people do. The blacks I work with certainly expect their children too be respectful but maybe they have just been "whitenized". In either case you can't tell me white people have no right to expect respect from younger people............Oh wait.........they have that right they just have to exclude black kids from their belief because that makes them prejudiced-----------------BULLSHIT!!!!

[DanO]

"If this is an age and generational gap, then it speaks for everyone of a certain age, regardless of race."
---------------------------BULLSHIT!! It only does because it serves your argument. It's BULLSHIT! The races are different now, they were 20 years ago, they were 50 years, ago, they were 100 years ago. That's fucking incredibly weak.

GO LIONS "11" !

[Kstat]

I love how you generalize white people expecting things from "their" young people, and blacks expecting things from "their" young people. I didn't know I was supposed to expect certain things from people only because we share the same skin tone. I must have missed the secret race meetings we held with our elders when I was a kid.

How are the races different, aside from cosmetic variances? I'd love to hear you go into this in detail.

[gjdodger]

Well, there's the jumping thing...

[nhwbrooklyn]

Kstat you very likely have just as much unconscious bias as DanO and anyone else.

Noticing something someone said that may or may not have been influenced by such bias is easy to do cause we all do it all the time. Doesn't mean DanO is a racist in the slightest bit or that you are a racist in the slightest bit.

Remember I thought it was BS that Rose could call people "uncle toms" and you defended him by saying that's all he knew from his background (or something like that)? DanO has never said anything even close to the equivalent of what Rose said that I know of. And we both don't think Rose is a racist. All DanO said was somethign that hinted at maybe being influenced by unconscious bias but can hardly be proven to be such.. being turned off by a perceived "me me" attitude is totally legitimate obviously and you both don't need me to say that. So before you keep picking in the way you are (not constructive... and trust me I know because I do that too) lets stop for a second and look in the mirror.

[DanO]

"I didn't know I was supposed to expect certain things from people only because we share the same skin tone."
-------------------------You're not. You can expect anything you want just as Joe Falls can expecct anything he wants. He expects young people to be respectful and not mouthy no matter what their race. He has a right to do that. You say he's racist because he does this. It's fucking BULLSHIT. Falls admonished Clay for his actions and mouthyness not for his skin color but too you any white person who says something negative about a black person they are racist. That's what you believe and you're wrong but it's that oh the poor black man theory you keep promoting that is perpetuating the problem.

I'm done with this discussion.

GO LIONS "11" !