U of M thread (in the Lions Forum) :)

[WingsFan]

Come to think of it, im more intense about sports when single (which will be the rest of my life). Im 10 years younger than you dodger, but I have mellowed a lot , we will see to test that b/c I think the Wings (if healthy) will be back to the finals this year.

[fredsue]

where is OSU playing their first games at?

[Kstat]

By emotionally affected I mean to the point of tears. Pretty much every event before or since I've always been able to step back and remove myself from the game and put it in proper context.

Chris Webber was like that really cool older kid you wanted to be when you grew up. I really wanted to see him win that championship, and I hated that he wound up being the goat from their loss. My whole attachment to the University of Michigan started with Webber's commitment. I even wanted to go to Country Day like him.

[*JD*]

I felt so bad for Webber and to see that all those cameramen hounded him on that walk back to the locker room was just shitty. That was a long walk too in the Superdome.

I'd also never seen the long shot that shows Talley on the bench signaling for a timeout right after Webber grabbed the rebound. I remembered Talley clapping but that's even worse as it looked like that's where Webber was looking (toward the bench) after he turned with the rebound.

[WingsFan]

I still will always remember tv showing Webber goofing around in practice (I think at the Final Four), made a shot from mid court backwards.

[Tony G]

But it was a team of cheaters, much like Auburn, USC and OSU's football teams. Had they won the title it would have been stripped. Would there then be much difference in the fans in love with the team then and the buckeye supporters now? I honestly don't know but it's a nice little reality check to make sure you're inside the hypocrisy margins.

[Kstat]

Don't give a fuck. I really don't. They were a bunch of teenagers that took pocket change (with the exception of Webber) from a booster. They weren't criminals. They were barely adults. There's never even any indication Webber took money while he was at Michigan.

I really don't agree with characterizing them as cheaters, and I don't like that they took the fall while just about every other college program defends their teams to the death.

They were kids from poor backgrounds that fucked up. It happens, but I refuse to hold that against them for the rest of their lives. Banners or not, the fab 5 is still the fab 5 to me. You can't take down the memories. I don't care what some almanac says. Pretending like you can vacate something that special simply by taking down a banner or two is absurd.

[Masspartan]

Don't give a fuck. I really don't. They were a bunch of teenagers that took pocket change (with the exception of Webber) from a booster. They weren't criminals. They were barely adults. There's never even any indication Webber took money while he was at Michigan.

I really don't agree with characterizing them as cheaters, and I don't like that they took the fall while just about every other college program defends their teams to the death.

They were kids from poor backgrounds that fucked up. It happens, but I refuse to hold that against them for the rest of their lives. Banners or not, the fab 5 is still the fab 5 to me. You can't take down the memories. I don't care what some almanac says. Pretending like you can vacate something that special simply by taking down a banner or two is absurd.

:-D

[Masspartan]

just a couple of poor kids grabbing some burger money??

The following information was taken from various newspaper articles
The truth about the Fab Five and Michigan Basketball:
1. “These are the most flagrant violations where money is involved in the history of intercollegiate athletics” (Don Canham-former UM AD)
2. “I kept hearing minor violation, minor violations- these are major, major violations.” (Don Canham).
3. “The entire era of the Fab five was a disgrace to the University of Michigan (Don Canham)
4. On Bill Martin saying they had a wonderful legacy. “I thought what he said was complete nonsense and he didn’t know anything about the situation or didn’t want to know.” (Don Canham) Note-- (Bill Martin later changes his mind and wants distance between UM and the Fab Five, however, it did not occur before Jimmy King and Ray Jackson help recruit Daniel Horton to UM).
5. “The thing that bothers me is that they fired Tom Goss (UM AD) because he tried to clean it up.
(Don Canham).
6. “This continued ever after Fisher left. (Don Canham)
What Happened:
1. Four players were paid $616,000 dollars –Chris Webber, Maurice Taylor, Robert Traylor, Louis Bullock. However the scandal long before this and ended long after.
2. McCabe/Freep: Martin paid players to go to UM and nowhere else. Taylor’s girlfriend said he had nothing when she met him and everything after. McCabe mentioned WJR as part of the cover-up and that they chose someone else to speak on the issue (Spadafore).
3. Ed Martin was involved with the following players minimally and many more players suspected:
A. Glen Rice (85-89)
B. Terry Mills(87-90)
C. Chris Webber (91-93)
D. Jalen Rose (91-94)
E. Maurice Taylor (94-97)
F. Louis Bullock (95-99)
G. Robert Traylor (95-98)
H. Albert White (96)
4. UM investigation did not go back to include Terry Mills or Glen Rice who had a clear connection to Ed Martin per March 24th, 2002 article by Jim Carty.
5. Robert Traylor, Maurice Taylor, and Louis Bullock all took money AFTER the banning of Ed Martin.
6. Ed Martin in fact took Mills father to the Windsor Raceway in 1984.
7. Jamal Crawford took three loans from Barry Henthorn all between 15,000-25,000 and received 3-vehicles including a Mercedes, gifts, AFTER the banning of Ed Martin. (There seems to be a connection between Henthorn and Martin that ).
8. Albert White took $37,000 from Ed Martin to attend UM per Sept 4th, 1999 Freep article. Although less money than others, this proved to be the most damaging. Because money was also given to his family and friends to influence his decision, which countered Martin's claim that this was a loan to be repaid.
9. Reporter John Beckett (October `12th, 1999, Ann Arbor News) said he told Steve Fisher after the 1989-90 season that players were getting “golden handshakes” and boosters were “slipping players money after games” and Fisher did nothing. Said Becker, “Fisher was perfectly content ‘not’ knowing.”
10. UM claimed that Martin gave money to players that went to other schools, however the only one that even remotely true was Albert White, who took $37,000 to go to Michigan and then transferred to Missouri after falling out with the coaching staff. As Voshon Leonard, Willie Burton, Anderson Hunt found out—if you don’t go to UM, you get nothing.
11. Bill Martin mislead people by saying Ed Martin was not a traditional booster—“because he didn’t go to UM or attend football games.” However he attended a lot of basketball games.
12. Chris Webber took 50,000 dollars the day he signed with UM.
13. Webber's family received also received money and gifts to influence his decision.
14. Steve Fisher allowed Martin to sit next to recruits at games with complimentary tickets.
15. Ed Martin often set up recruit press conferences and handed out UM hats.
16. Ed Martin set up strippers and alcohol for recruits.
17. Ed Martin received hotel reservations to the Final Four on the team floor. Something the most ardent booster cannot do.
18. Ed Martin was in Robert Traylor’s house during Steve Fishers in-house visit.
19. Fisher made numerous phone calls to Ed Martin per phone records also including pertaining to the final four.
20. Fisher wrote a note that explained Ed Martin was to sit next to recruit Willie Mitchell on Feb 18th, 1994.
21. Mick McCabe/FREEP: “Ed Martin paid players to go to UM and nowhere else, UM lacked institutional control…UM did a cover up, and other teams wasted a lot of time, effort, and money, to recruit players UM bought".
22. Bullock and Traylor took money only in college showing a direct connect between UM and Ed Martin.
23. Antoine Joubert took large amounts of money to ‘mow lawns’ for Ed Martin.
24. When indicted, Ed Martin stood on the courthouse steps and shouted, “Go Blue!”
25. Ed Martin paid for an apartment for Chris Webber and Jalen Rose.
26. Robert Traylor sometimes listed his address as 17430 Fairway Drive, which happened to be Ed Martins home address.
27. Money wasn’t the only gifts—apartments, cars, furs coats, jewelry, cologne and perfumes, cakes, food, etc. were also included.
28. Handwriting experts said Steve fisher forged (“PW”) on complimentary tickets to Ed Martin. Fisher said this was to show who requested them allegedly Perry Watson, but fisher fails to investigators this.
29. Mick McCabe claims that “UM lobbed softball questions to Ed Martin because they didn’t want to know the truth.”
30. FBI special agent John Bell said, “Players were less than forthcoming".
31. Chris Webber refused to answer questions related to point shaving. (Ann Arbor News, August 3rd, 2000). 32. UM did not only three poor investigations, but had to reopen investigations in both the Ed Martin case on May 28th, 1999 but in the Jamal Crawford case in 2000.
33. Had a proper investigation been done back to Mills and others, this coincided with major baseball violations in UM’s program from 1983-1988 including Rice, Mills, and apparently Jalen Rose.
34. The FBI raided Martins home and ten other homes and found receipts connecting Ed Martin and players. They also found gambling ledgers, drug paraphernalia, large amounts of cash, and autographed posters of the Fab Five.
35. Former UM player Leslie Rockymore who played for Bill Frieder, said Ed Martin was frequently around the program and gave gifts to Terry Mills.
36. The Fab Five helped increased revenue from 1.6 million to 6.2 million but UM only chose to repay $450,000.
37. “Fisher knew exactly what Martin was doing, Fisher let Ed Martin become his partner, keeping the programs best players happy, there’s no denying that anymore.” (Jim Carty).
38. “It is absolutely unforgiveable that Bullock was allowed to pull this off after the dust has settled, this one won’t go away easily, because the Bullock episode comes after the whistle was first blown on Ed Martin and after UM conducted it’s own investigation.”
39. Other boosters came to light as well including Barry Henthorn, Marion Jones, and James Brown.
40. Jalen Rose was ticketed for loitering at a drug house during a raid. (1993)
41. Jimmy King, Ray Jackson, and Chris fields steal beer form a Dairy Mart. (1994)
42. Charles Woodson and David Bowen received money, clothes, transportation and other perks from agents Darnell Jones and James Brown while Woodson is in college. Jones said he “discovered” Woodson long before 1997 and that he gave Woodson and his mother gifts including a fur coat. Some claim that UM knew and kept this a secret until 2001 when the NCAA statute regarding further penalty ran out. Had UM reported this he likely would have received a one-game suspension like Peter Warrick of FSU and lost the Heisman Trophy and perhaps a National Championship for UM.
43. During this time Jamal Crawford comes to light:
A. He receives three loans and three vehicles including a Chevy Blazer.
B. He also receives numerous gifts, cash, a Mercedes, and gold jewelry.
C. Barry Henthorn said UM knew about the gifts from “Day One”.
D. Henthorn’s assistant Darcienne LeRoue files a lawsuit claiming she was coerced into signing three loans to “evade NCAA rules.”
E. It is discovered the third vehicle is a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and that he also received housing, spending money, and clothes as well.
F. Crawford receives $25,000, the NCAA asks him to return $11,300.
44. UM Academic fraud and steering athletes to easier classes happened even in this era, and nothing is done.

[Kstat]

you forgot to include #32, which is I don't give a fuck. The real vicious stuff on there is all unproven allegations that little brother likes to jerk off to.

What little brother hates to acknowledge is that they did the exact same shit with the flintstones, starting with Mateen Cleaves. That 2000 banner shouldn't be there either, but that will never come close to happening.

[nhwbrooklyn]

Man I was going to let you enjoy your fab 5 revisionist story but seriously don't claim Cleaves and the flintstones were involved with anything remotely like what happened at UofM.

[Kstat]

Izzo can play dirty with the best of them. He's like the Tressell of college basketball. Little brother just doesn't like to admit it.

[nhwbrooklyn]

That's just retarded.

[Kstat]

It became retarded when little brother came in and decided to play around and throw slop at the wall. Have your little conspiracy party in the sparty thread.

I'd say go have it in the sparty forum, but frankly nobody cares about MSU enough to have one.

[nhwbrooklyn]

Kstat I respect your passion for the fav 5. I do. But you got to realize they were an extremely polarizing bunch in so many different ways. From what they did, from what they said, from what they literally wore. I hated, and still do, what comes out of Jalen Roses mouth about race and uncle tom this and that. And I hate duke too!.. but that was BS.

I love my bad boy era pistons and in particular bill laimbeer and the rest of the world hates them (though thats changing a tad too). It's not the same but there is enough to relate what you are feeling (I think).

You got to step outside yourself for a second and just realize blindly claiming izzo and the flintstones are dirty too is ridiculous.