U of M thread (in the Lions Forum) :)

[chemiclord]

Chem,

That's all intersting, but can you prove it? I've long suspected Carr was none too happy about Rich Rod's hiring, and I do think Brandon eased him out, but it's just speculation for me.

It's always going to be just speculation. The Michigan brass respect Carr's time given too much to point that finger, and Rodriguez doesn't have the attack dogs in the Michigan media to go that far.

I myself was only on the periphery of all this, and I'm certainly not going to try and put myself in that crossfire over the bits and pieces I had gleaned.

I'll also admit that my own experience with the "noble" coach (he had a habit of getting pissy at the media when they dared to question him), is probably tainting a lot of my takes. The dude, as far as I'm concerned, is a whiny, manipulating, little bitch.

Unlike Rosenberg, I know better than to take that bias and try to make journalism out of it. Then again, I also don't have the protection that Rosenberg has to prevent me from being flayed alive for doing so.

[Mainevent]

It ain't the Big Two and Little Eight anymore. OSU, PSU, Iowa, and Nebraska all have solid programs.

Of course. He doesn't have to win a title every year. But you'd expect UM to contend most years and knock one out every 2-3 years. I mean, how far down do you want to set the bar?

[chemiclord]

What I can tell you is that Lloyd Carr did not want Les Miles as the coach. The two had some sort of past and Carr genuinely does not like Miles. I am uncertain of the details of that relationship, however.

I can also tell you that Carr felt he deserved the right to handpick his successor, and that had it been Carr's choice, Ron English would be the coach at Michigan.

I can also tell you that Rosenberg at the Freep was Carr's most ardent supporter, and that the pair had a relationship that probably extended a bit beyond the usual media/coach interaction. The two were friends.

The rest, connecting the dots, is all speculation based on what I have heard from people I believe to be somewhat in the know. I wouldn't be able to verify any of that in a way I'd be comfortable trying to publish.

[froot loops]

Maybe Carr doesn't like Rodriguez because he's just not a very good coach. That could be in addition to Carr being a whiny, behind the scenes infighter.

I never understood this faith that he will turn it around. He doesn't recruit all that well, if you look at the rankings they rate it seems like they rate in the teens under Rodriguez, but those rankings seem kind of hollow and not what they were looking for. Its hard to say those recruits are better than the last years of Carrs recruit where it had fallen off.

Spartan fans(me included) had likened him to their John L Smith. But so far that has been slanderous to John L Smith. He would actually field pretty exciting offenses that could score in spurts against good teams. Inevitably the defense would fall apart and they would lose against those good teams but you had points of reference where you would think a juggernaut offense couldn't be far behind. But I don't even see that with Rodriguez. Most of that hope is with seeing what he did in previous stops, at Michigan the evidence of a great offense is very weak.

[Mainevent]

He's always won, wherever he goes. But I get the sense that he will always be at the mercy of his QB. When he gets a great one, a great fit for his offense, like Pat White, his teams will be good. In those intervening years? Not so much. The peaks and valleys don't seem as manageable, especially in a conference with strong defensive squads that will pound the crap out of you. And, as Froot points out, he recruits a diffferent kind of player and may not have the raw talent that other premier schools grab.

[SeattleLionsFan]

Moeller would be a very interesting choice to me. Is he still coaching?

[Mainevent]

Chris Peterson. He was my favorite behind Miles when the original search was on.

[Rocky Bleier]

Of course. He doesn't have to win a title every year. But you'd expect UM to contend most years and knock one out every 2-3 years. I mean, how far down do you want to set the bar?

Not low at all. Just pointing out that it's a much tougher road these days. Peterson was my choice too.

[froot loops]

The thing about saying he's won wherever he went, John L Smith won everywhere he went to a certain extent as well. Smith wasn't as successful as Rodriguez was in his last year at WVU but he was known as a turnaround artist. The key with both is were the wins based on a gimmick offense that teams hadn't yet caught up to? And did some of the winning come in leagues where that offense is more likely to win.

I'm not saying a spread offense can't be successful, but the ceiling in the big ten might be a Northwestern or Purdue type of success. You build a pretty decent program that goes to bowls regularly and every 3 or 4 years you contend for a big ten title based on you QB reaching senior level maturity. Michigan is looking for a coach who wins big every year, where 3 losses is supposed to be frowned on. I'm just not sure you are getting that with this approach, it seems to me they are neglecting the strengths(OL, dropback QBs, WRs, secondary and running backs) in order to get some of the other players.

[Rocky Bleier]

I never understood this faith that he will turn it around. He doesn't recruit all that well, if you look at the rankings they rate it seems like they rate in the teens under Rodriguez, but those rankings seem kind of hollow and not what they were looking for. Its hard to say those recruits are better than the last years of Carrs recruit where it had fallen off.

On the contrary. He's recruited exceptionally well considering his record the last two years. I believe he has still outrecruited MSU overall, and Dantonio gets tons of somewhat unwarranted positive press. If RR ever gets it turned around MSU will have to pray that the Detroit Southeatern pipline continues to flow, because Michigan's recruiting dominance will return to its former level. Nebraska didn't do well in recruiting rankings in Tom Osborne's day, but they built championship teams through hard work.

[Rocky Bleier]

Most of that hope is with seeing what he did in previous stops, at Michigan the evidence of a great offense is very weak.

You do realize he had one returning player on offense his first year (Steve Schilling) and he still doesn't have a good quarterback. I am more concerned about the state of the defense. I don't know that he'll ever put together a good one, and I believe the Big Ten will always be won with defense.

[froot loops]

As an offensive guru he should be able to do things with less.

How could I forget the ridiculous positive press that State receives from the biased detroit Papers. Thanks for setting us straight.

[froot loops]

The funny thing is I'm not comparing the recruiting that State is doing for my analysis of RichRod. As a national powerhouse you need to be looking at teams like Alabama. How many 5 star recruits do they have versus you? This isn't like Rodriguez took over some slouch of a program, he didn't have to prove himself before recruits came. They should have flocked when word came that he was coming here.

I guess the hard work angle is something you should look to in comparing Nebraska of 15 years ago(although their main NC success was when they started getting high quality defensive recruits)., but does that mean Michigan hasn't been working hard the last two years? Less pizza eating and more Barwis is the trick I guess.

[Rocky Bleier]

The offense has been pretty good considering the youth and inexperience. The Detroit News is not biased. The Freep is a much different story. Michigan definitely has fallen recruiting wise versus the big programs - no argument there. I believe it's a result of a poor record, constant media speculation about the coaching situation, and negative recruting. Michigan has definitely been working hard in the weight room the last two seasons. Brandon Graham was a major success story. But the roster has been heavily tilted toward youth, and most of those kids have taken time to get bigger. Maybe Nebraska was a bad example because they were probably steroid built.

[froot loops]

Their offense was not good when you stacked it up with conference play only. It was at the bottom of the conference. It was much better when you put the non-conference stats in there.