Red Wings

[chemiclord]

"No one is off the table. If someone wants to blow me away with an offer for Datsyuk or Zetterberg... come at me, bro."

There is always a great chance you will not like the return you get for those guys. So if you do make the trade then you are incompetent, but if you don't make the trade you are badgered because you're not blowing it up. When you talk about incompetent front offices, some of the incompetence comes from the fact they traded or had to trade established players and got 50 cents on the dollar. Ask the BlackHawk fans how they liked the Chelios trade.

The reason Ken Holland is thought of as a good GM is because he's the one trading the 50 cents for the the dollar.

Something tells me Blackhawks fans aren't particularly upset at this point about the Chelios trade... they're too busy being one of the league's top teams with a Cup in the very recent history. It made sense for Chicago who wasn't going anywhere and would have gotten NOTHING at all. That Blackhawks fans went apeshit about it is their stupidity.

[froot loops]

Oh no, you talk to Blackhawk fans and they were rightfully pissed. That traded weakened them and got them nothing. It was the type of trade you are advocating. It got them no further to contending for a title. Its true. The Wings got 6 or 7 good years out of Chelios and gave up good prospects at the time that turned out nothing for the Hawks.

[chemiclord]

Oh no, you talk to Blackhawk fans and they were rightfully pissed. That traded weakened them and got them nothing. It was the type of trade you are advocating. It got them no further to contending for a title. Its true. The Wings got 6 or 7 good years out of Chelios and gave up good prospects at the time that turned out nothing for the Hawks.

If you think the Wings core players have 6 or 7 more years of elite level production in them, then THAT is the heart of our disagreement. If I thought the window closing was that far down the road, I wouldn't be advocating blowing anything up either.

Because I see maybe 3 at the very most. This team isn't going to be in position for a Cup in those three years.

[froot loops]

Chris Chelios was much older when they traded for him. But it isn't really about this, "If you think the Wings core players have 6 or 7 more years of elite level production in them, then THAT is the heart of our disagreement". The Blackhawks were doing what you are advocating now and it got them no further to getting a championship, it was a terrible trade for them. Most of these fire sale trades are. If you think they are only getting maybe 3 years at the most for their core players, then they aren't getting much in trade. Thats where the disagreement is, you think they are getting much more in return than they will likely to get.

Basically your argument is having it both ways, if Holland gets offered 50 cents on the dollar and he takes it then you'll complain and if he rejects that 50 cents on the dollar you'll complain he's doing nothing.

And I always get a kick out of this mythical Red Wing fan you talk about, I live in Detroit and I don't any of these people who talk about birthrights and crap like that.

[Tom]

Chemiclord, weren't you the one that was saying that Kronwall had basically replaced Lidstrom as the star defenseman of the team? I thought you were under the impression that losing Lidstrom was not going to be a big deal because Kronwall was in place.

While I would have liked to have seen the acquisition of Suter, I think it turned out better for the Wings that they didn't get him. His contract was ridiculous. I have faith that Holland can find guys at the trade deadline that will help the team. He hasn't done it every year but his track record is pretty good.

[froot loops]

Chemiclord, weren't you the one that was saying that Kronwall had basically replaced Lidstrom as the star defenseman of the team? I thought you were under the impression that losing Lidstrom was not going to be a big deal because Kronwall was in place.

Correct he and Jeff Moss argued precisely that.

[chemiclord]

Chemiclord, weren't you the one that was saying that Kronwall had basically replaced Lidstrom as the star defenseman of the team? I thought you were under the impression that losing Lidstrom was not going to be a big deal because Kronwall was in place.

While I would have liked to have seen the acquisition of Suter, I think it turned out better for the Wings that they didn't get him. His contract was ridiculous. I have faith that Holland can find guys at the trade deadline that will help the team. He hasn't done it every year but his track record is pretty good.

At the time, Kronwall was. Kronwall had replaced Lidstrom on the PK unit, and was supposed to replace him on the PP as well (although in the spirit of fairness, that was only because they wanted to limit Lidstrom's ice time so that he'd be reasonably fresh come playoff time).

I NEVER said the loss of Lidstrom wouldn't hurt (like Froot likes to put in my mouth). But if you believed the panickers, Lidstrom's retirement was going to doom the franchise and they'd never be good again for another decade or more. They were certain the next Dead Things era was upon us once Lidstrom hung up his skates.

You can NEVER replace the best defenseman of our era, but with good moves it's not the end. Suter and Parise were kinda that last gasp chance to kinda sorta keep what they had going. Now it's time to transition, and again, with good moves, the Wings will be back. I don't doubt Holland can do it... I just don't see the point in watching this team slowly fade away before starting the rebuild.

[jaadam4]

I'm glad we didn't land Suter or Praise. Those contracts were stupid.

We have plenty of cap space we just can't fuck up and trade a #1 pick for someone like Quincey again. We have to continue to build our youngins and spend wisely.

Brunner has been an awesome find. Once this team gets healthy we'll see what we have. Injuries have been a killer.

[froot loops]

I don't doubt Holland can do it... I just don't see the point in watching this team slowly fade away before starting the rebuild.

The point is you think they are going to fetch far more for their core than they will. Those strategies are not proven to be any more effective than staying the course. They will have a lot of cap space and they will find people. In fact after they lost out on Parise and Suter, they already found a nice young player in Damien Brunner. Holland as a GM and the Wings as an organiazation are pretty good at finding these players. They just need to get a couple defensmen. And that was going to be the case once Lidstrom retired and Stuart left. You can't easily replace those players, especially Lidstrom. You are seeing how much the loss of him is hurting, they have trouble holding leads.

[chemiclord]

The point is you think they are going to fetch far more for their core than they will. Those strategies are not proven to be any more effective than staying the course. They will have a lot of cap space and they will find people. In fact after they lost out on Parise and Suter, they already found a nice young player in Damien Brunner. Holland as a GM and the Wings as an organiazation are pretty good at finding these players. They just need to get a couple defensmen. And that was going to be the case once Lidstrom retired and Stuart left. You can't easily replace those players, especially Lidstrom. You are seeing how much the loss of him is hurting, they have trouble holding leads.

They were having trouble holding leads last year WITH Lidstrom. One player (or even one pairing), no matter how great, does not a defense make.

And yes, getting something (no matter how little) is better than getting nothing by letting it play out for no tangible results. If Chelios could garner two first round picks and a player, I don't see how the Wings couldn't get a 1st round and some prospects (roughly) for some of their core players. It would help improve the chances for the coming rebuild... rather than waiting and waiting and waiting and still having to rebuild anyway.

[froot loops]

A 1st rounder and some prospects for who?

[chemiclord]

Does it really matter specifically who?

Hell it doesn't even matter to me that I get "X" for "y".

I see a team going nowhere fast. This team, as it's assembled has next to no chance of competing for anything. You're basically hoping at some point in the next 2-3 years, they catch lightning in a bottle at just the right time like the Kings did last season.

Fuck. That.

So, yeah... I see "Something" > "Nothing"; the latter of which they will inexorably get if they let this current team as assembled play itself out.

At the very least, the Wings can drop useless wastes of a roster spot like Kyle Quincey for a stick of bubblegum and start seeing how their talent in GR will handle the bright lights. I mean, fuck, how much worse can they really be? Same deal with Todd Bertuzzi or Dan Cleary. I mean, even if you don't want to completely blow it up, there are things you can do rather than fly in this slowly descending holding pattern.

[jaadam4]

Jeez man.. We're not completely without talent. Dats and Z are All Star caliber players. We have cap room and some decent youngins. This team doesn't need to be blown up.

[chemiclord]

Jeez man.. We're not completely without talent. Dats and Z are All Star caliber players. We have cap room and some decent youngins. This team doesn't need to be blown up.

If by decent you mean borderline playoff team, yeah... decent.

The problem is that this time around, the influx of talent the Wings have waiting in the... well... the wings ISN'T going to be enough. As Federov and Yzerman and Shanahan dropped off, there was Franzen, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg to step up to fill that void.

Who's in that next group? Well... there's Brunner... and Brunner... have I mentioned Brunner yet? Where's the power forward? Where's the distributor? Where is the Robin to Batman... and that's presuming Brunner actually IS the Batman in this case. I haven't seen that guy in GR yet, and I don't think he's already in the organization overseas, either.

The defense outside of Kronwall and possibly Smith really doesn't have anyone with the potential to rise to the occasion... and with the cap, the Wings can't really buy their defensive support like they did in the past.

Let's face it, jaddam... lean years are coming. The talent they need to continue fueling the engine simply isn't there. The tank is going on empty. I don't particularly fault Holland and the front office for this, the heights they helped this team reach were never going to last forever.

But I also have little interest in watching this slow descent, each year getting progressively worse until it bottoms out and Holland starts the rebuild. Why drag that out? What sense does that make? Why slowly peel off the bandaid when you can rip it off, get it over with, and move on? It's going to hurt no matter what.

[froot loops]

Does it really matter specifically who?

Hell it doesn't even matter to me that I get "X" for "y".

I see a team going nowhere fast. This team, as it's assembled has next to no chance of competing for anything. You're basically hoping at some point in the next 2-3 years, they catch lightning in a bottle at just the right time like the Kings did last season.

Fuck. That.

So, yeah... I see "Something" > "Nothing"; the latter of which they will inexorably get if they let this current team as assembled play itself out.

At the very least, the Wings can drop useless wastes of a roster spot like Kyle Quincey for a stick of bubblegum and start seeing how their talent in GR will handle the bright lights. I mean, fuck, how much worse can they really be? Same deal with Todd Bertuzzi or Dan Cleary. I mean, even if you don't want to completely blow it up, there are things you can do rather than fly in this slowly descending holding pattern.

Actually yes it does matter, if you are going to trade Zetterberg or Datsyuk for some prospects and a 1st rounder I want you as an opposing GM. I hope Holland finds a guy like you to trade with, I'd trade the prospects and a 1st rounder for the Zetterberg/Datsyuk type player.

You make fun of the mention of Brunner. But Brunner is brought up because he was acquired since the time where you first proposed that they blow up the Wings because they didn't get Suter and Parise. They found the guy and he's good. They didn't need to blow up the team to get him. The Wings and Holland over the years have found a lot of guys like him. They have cap space and they have a good front office. There's no need to panic, and you are in panic mode judging by your posts.