Red Wings

[jaadam4]

Not trying to compare production because Suter is one of the better dmen in the league but the numbers aren't that far off. Quincy isn't that bad and would've made a lot more as an UFA.

Suter
7G 39 A

Quincy
7G 19A

[lions&tigers&wings...yea]

Those aren't the stats to compare....Quincey outhit Suter by like ~30-40 and only had 20 less blocked shots while playing in 7 less games. And Suter makes 2X what Quincey does.



But man oh man do I hate Philly right now...they just signed Weber to a 14 year 100+ Mill offer sheet. That completely fucks our plans of ever getting him...now Nashville can just match it with a smile on their face and thank Philly for negotiating for them and have Weber at a cap hit less than what Suter got in Minnesota. SHIT!!!

[chemiclord]

When you feel the window is open to win now, you take your shot, no matter the price.

The only thing is that I don't see how Nashville doesn't match this.

Smith better be the second coming of Lidstrom at this rate... because Holland refuses to break from his outdated "plan", and there's no help for that defense either now or in the immediate future.

I just don't see any hope at this point. It's gonna be like watching an old friend waste away because the doctor won't do a transplant and no one is willing to pull the plug.

[jaadam4]

When you feel the window is open to win now, you take your shot, no matter the price.

You take the shot now that screws you for the next 13 years if it doesn't work out? These contracts are like life long commitments man. Plus we're arguing a point that doesn't matter. I don't think they wanted to come here. They wanted to be in Minny.

[jaadam4]

But man oh man do I hate Philly right now...

I HATE PHILLY!!! THOSE PIECE OF SHIT FLYERS!!

I sure as shit hope Holland tried the Weber route. Weber is indeed an elite dman and well worth that amount of cash.

[froot loops]

The need more than a decent defenseman.

That's why getting Suter was so crucial this year.

This entire thing smacks of the 2010 NBA offseason. Once Joe D struck out, he blew all his coin on players that were not going to help the Pistons.

Same deal here. Bunch of cap space... and what do the Red Wings do with it? Jordan Tootoo? Mikael Samuelsson? Kyle Quincy? I am not the LEAST bit impressed with that clump of mediocrity. At ALL. None of them make the Wings a better team. It's just the same ol' same ol' that got bounced in the first round.

Yay?

It doesn't smack of the 2010 NBA season at all. AT ALL. Joe D spent a huge amount of money in length and years on two players who weren't starting material. You might not like the players, but you are in the Jeff Moss/DrewSharp worldview where you need big names to satisfy you. You probably weren't interested in guys like Dallas Drake and Larry Murphy.

The guys Holland signed were low cost, they aren't going to hamstring the team. Even if they got Suter, they were going to need to sign Quincey, the loss of Lidstrom and Suter dictated that.

You keep on with doom about the window closing and going all in. Take a chill pill.

pANDs

You weren't even right about Joe D. He didn't strike out on big free agents and settle on Charlie V and Ben Gordon. They were the big free agents of that offseason.

pANDs 2

You endorsed the signings Joe had because Stern allegedly got rid of defense. Ha!

[chemiclord]

pANDs

You weren't even right about Joe D. He didn't strike out on big free agents and settle on Charlie V and Ben Gordon. They were the big free agents of that offseason.

pANDs 2

You endorsed the signings Joe had because Stern allegedly got rid of defense. Ha!

No, I did NOT endorse those signings, because they were what I thought they were; mediocre players because Joe D. gave up on trying to get one of the big FAs before he even tried. (Not that he was WRONG to think there was no chance in hell... but the attempt would have been nice.)

Holland isn't bothered because he still thinks his "plan" will work. I just don't see it. The talent to continue to fuel the Wing's machine isn't there. It's going to stall, and it's going to happen pretty quickly. The "plan" needs revision, one way or the other.

The only rationale I can think of is that at this point, Holland is taking a calculated gamble that the cap for this coming season is going to be significantly lower than it was this year, and that the big buyers this offseason are going to have to make cuts to meet it... which the Wings can then take advantage of.

It's one of those things that if he's right, he'll look like a genius; and if he's wrong, he'll look like an idiot.

[chemiclord]

pANDs

You weren't even right about Joe D. He didn't strike out on big free agents and settle on Charlie V and Ben Gordon. They were the big free agents of that offseason.

pANDs 2

You endorsed the signings Joe had because Stern allegedly got rid of defense. Ha!

No, I did NOT endorse those signings, because they were what I thought they were; mediocre players because Joe D. gave up on trying to get one of the big FAs before he even tried. (Not that he was WRONG to think there was no chance in hell... but the attempt would have been nice.)

And I had no problem with Dallas Drake, so fuck you and your condescending strawman. The Wings needed to get tougher in their forwards at the time, and got one for a couple years at a pretty good price.

This time around, the Wings needed (and still need) an elite defenseman. Holland's answer was to retain Kyle Quincey, a guy Babcock thought so little of that the scenario, "Ya know... maybe I don't need this guy in the playoffs" occurred. And apparently, I'm supposed to be thrilled.

Holland isn't bothered because he still thinks his "plan" will work. I just don't see it. The talent to continue to fuel the Wing's machine isn't there. It's going to stall, and it's going to happen pretty quickly. The "plan" needs revision, one way or the other.

The only rationale I can think of is that at this point, Holland is taking a calculated gamble that the hard cap for this coming season is going to be significantly lower than it was this year, and that the big buyers this offseason are going to have to make cuts to meet it... which the Wings can then take advantage of.

It's one of those things that if he's right, he'll look like a genius; and if he's wrong, he'll look like an idiot.

[froot loops]

Again, the Quincey signing was going to happen whether they got Suter or not. They don't have any depth, even with the signing of Quincey they still need some more defenseman. You keep on channeling your inner Jeff Moss/Mike Valenti and keep on harping on one scratch. Quincey is a fine depth defenseman. Your problem is you are on the Joe D panic trail. You are under the mistaken impression the window is closing like this year. Last year you were pooh poohing any possible loss of Lidstrom and when it turns out that its really hard to get another top defenseman you are talking about the end and needing to buy the farm to compete one last time this year.

The signing of Kyle Quincey has no significance on whether Holland is a genius or an idiot. It isn't actually not one of those things, it isn't really close. Its truly nothing much to get all hot and bothered about.

[froot loops]

pANDs

I bring up Dallas Drake is because you were ripping on the Jordin Tootoo acquisition. He was brought in for the exact same reason. That he wanted to bring in a tough, aggravating forward. They won a title with him, so in retrospect he was a good signing that you apparently endorsed. But now with the Tootoo signing it is a Joe D 2010 move. In fact they got both forwards for the same reason. It was a valid reason then, it is a valid reason now.

The larger point I'm making is that a lot of championship teams are made with the ho-hum acuisitions of these guys you would call mediocre. Just because you lose out on a Suter doesn't mean you lose all perspective. They will in time find someone to spend money on.

[jaadam4]

pANDs

I bring up Dallas Drake is because you were ripping on the Jordin Tootoo acquisition. He was brought in for the exact same reason. That he wanted to bring in a tough, aggravating forward. They won a title with him, so in retrospect he was a good signing that you apparently endorsed. But now with the Tootoo signing it is a Joe D 2010 move. In fact they got both forwards for the same reason. It was a valid reason then, it is a valid reason now.

The larger point I'm making is that a lot of championship teams are made with the ho-hum acuisitions of these guys you would call mediocre. Just because you lose out on a Suter doesn't mean you lose all perspective. They will in time find someone to spend money on.

Very well put.

[lions&tigers&wings...yea]

Ok so I can see now why Weber signed the deal with Philly. The new CBA is going to get rid of the ridiculous cap-circumventing structures of the long term deals that are being made now...so Weber just wanted to sign his and have it in place before the CBA expires and they start negotiating on the new one. If Nashville can actually come up with the ~30 million Weber will get in this first calendar year then they will have no troubles matching it with a smile.


I wonder how long it takes for Voracek to get offer-sheeted as how that is supposedly a big un-written rule of GMs, that if you offer-sheet a player you are now opening the door to any RFA you have in the future to be offer-sheeted by any other GM who believes in that rule.

[chemiclord]

Again, the Quincey signing was going to happen whether they got Suter or not. They don't have any depth, even with the signing of Quincey they still need some more defenseman. You keep on channeling your inner Jeff Moss/Mike Valenti and keep on harping on one scratch. Quincey is a fine depth defenseman. Your problem is you are on the Joe D panic trail. You are under the mistaken impression the window is closing like this year. Last year you were pooh poohing any possible loss of Lidstrom and when it turns out that its really hard to get another top defenseman you are talking about the end and needing to buy the farm to compete one last time this year.

The signing of Kyle Quincey has no significance on whether Holland is a genius or an idiot. It isn't actually not one of those things, it isn't really close. Its truly nothing much to get all hot and bothered about.

Any more misrepresentations you wanna make? Go on, just get 'em all out there now.

I was NOT "pooh poohing" on Lidstrom's retirement. I went OUT OF MY FUCKING WAY TO REPEATEDLY SAY IT WAS GOING TO HURT. What I DID say was with the right acquisitions, it wasn't going to hurt as much as "the sky is falling" fans were worried it would. Saying that a 27-year old Suter isn't a huge dropoff from a 41-year-old Lidstrom is NOT dismissing Lidstrom, no matter what strawman you want to construct about it.

And yes, I'm harping on the healthy scratch because it is clear and obvious evidence that Babcock doesn't think Quincey offers anything remarkable to the team, and yet Holland throws nearly $4 million at him.

And I'm hot and bothered about it because the Wings really didn't have that many options to find the elite defenseman or power forward they need. You are right that Quincey, Tootoo and Samuelsson aren't really the issue. The problem is the Wings had two "major" needs in this off-season if they were going to be realistic Cup contenders... and at this point, Holland has addressed NEITHER of them, and one of them (the elite defenseman) I no longer see how Holland even CAN address it.

Again, I ask you... how is this team better from last year? What has Holland done to make this team better? It's funny how you refuse to answer that... but I know why. Because you CAN'T. They aren't any better. If anything, they're worse.

Holland struck out. And yes, the window IS closing. The core of this team is pretty much all on the wrong side of 30, and there not enough talent waiting in the wings to replace them. I'm sorry you hate that, but it's true.

[FCRhodes]

Love the Tootoo signing. And if Babcock didn't want Quincey, Holland would have let him go. I think Quincey can be a good 2nd line Defenseman.

We will be looking at trades to improve the team. May have to wait until the season.

[chemiclord]

Ok so I can see now why Weber signed the deal with Philly. The new CBA is going to get rid of the ridiculous cap-circumventing structures of the long term deals that are being made now...so Weber just wanted to sign his and have it in place before the CBA expires and they start negotiating on the new one. If Nashville can actually come up with the ~30 million Weber will get in this first calendar year then they will have no troubles matching it with a smile.

And that remains the big wild card in all this.

There is a good chance that the salary cap for these coming years will be significantly lower than in recent ones... the teams who were big spenders this off-season will likely be facing some really tough decisions, and shrewd GMs should be able to take advantage of the fire sale.

Love the Tootoo signing. And if Babcock didn't want Quincey, Holland would have let him go. I think Quincey can be a good 2nd line Defenseman.

We will be looking at trades to improve the team. May have to wait until the season.

The Tootoo signing, in a complete vacuum, isn't a big deal. The Wings DID need that antagonizing 4th line grinder.

And Quincey is only a 2nd line defenseman on a team that doesn't have ANY defensive depth. Oh... yeah... that's Detroit. Nevermind.

In Babcock's estimation at the end of the season, he flat out said "we need a top defenseman and a top 6 forward." I can't imagine he's thinking, "Yeah! Kyle Quincey! THAT'S what I was talking about! I TOTALLY scratched that guy in the playoffs out of LOVE! Way to bring me the goods, Ken!"