Red Wings

[chemiclord]

False. Extreme overraction to not getting these two free agents. This is stuff of Mike Valenti, grand sweeping gestures. All in like its a poker event. Please, the core is getting older, but they do have some young players. And trading everything you might have left might not get you much anyway. Its kind of like people are ignoring that Holland has tried desperately to trade for players and the GMs look at whats left in the farm system and come to the same conclusion you do. They don't think its that good. Its like if the result isn't right, its the the result of some patient plan, instead of the result of them not having enough to trade.

Plus every other big money team is left holding the bag. Those two went to the Wild. They have money, they will find some players eventually. In some cases

Suter and Parise are merely the latest examples.

Last trade deadline, when Holland sat on his hands is another. He wasn't willing to pay the price he needed to pay. End result: Bounced in the first round.

I get his "plan"; it's worked for damn near 20 years. But I don't see it working in the next five. They don't have that same rotation of talent that allows them to sit back and let things happen naturally.

There's nobody the Red Wings currently have that will replace Zetterberg and Datsyuk like those two replaced the core of the last group. Jurco is rather highly regarded... as is Smith... but that's pretty much it.

Don't kid yourself. The rebuild IS coming. The question is when. I'm not terribly concerned which choice Holland makes... but he can't say that this core has some more deep runs in them... and then do nothing. Because the team, as it is currently assembled, is quite a longshot. The defense was spotty last year even WITH Lidstrom. It's going to be worse without him, even if you think Lidstrom was on his last legs. The offense is still very streaky... it still needs another "power forward", I think. If Holland thinks this team can win the Cup... he has to make some moves, it's as simple as that.

[froot loops]

The problem is with your viewpoint is you think Holland had some deal that he could have done and he just didn't do it becaus of the plan. He was desperately trying to make a deal and he didn't have anything to deal. Perhaps the mistake you are making is the diplomatic talk Holland does when he gets shut out. The plan for the last twenty years has been to try and make deals at the deadline. They are actually not all that active in free agency, if you look back in the last twenty years you can probably count big free agent acquisitions in the summer on one hand.

By the way, the rebuild will come soon enough. I said before when Lidstrom goes all bets are off. You didn't think so, you were trying to sell a Jeff Moss line that they could replace him in free agency. It diregarded the fact that the Wings haven't really done all that much in free agency. They've never signed a top notch free agent that would be instantly considered part of their core. You can't make difference makers appear out of nothing and the Red Wings don't have a lot to trade. If anything the Red Wings have to revamp slightly how they do things in getting young players. They haven't produced much in the lower levels for awhile now. The years of picking at the back of the draft are catching up to them. But all rebuilds happene in earnest when you start missing playoffs and getting high draft choices. No Mike Valenti "all in" grand gesture is going to change that.

[Tony G]

They've never signed a top notch free agent that would be instantly considered part of their core.

Hossa doesn't fit that? I know they didn't retain him but that was a big signing

[nhwbrooklyn]

Can Ben Gordon and Charlie V skate?

[froot loops]

Hossa doesn't fit that? I know they didn't retain him but that was a big signing

No I don't think he does fit that. He was a one year rental that everyone knew was a one year rental. When you talk about core players, that is like someone whos going to be there for awhile.

[DanO]

"The problem is with your viewpoint is you think Holland had some deal that he could have done and he just didn't do it becaus of the plan."
---------------------Actually what I'm garnering is chemi thinks Holland should have offered a bunch more money. He's using the term "afraid to pull the trigger". I'm certain had the offer been accepted he would have "pulled the trigger" in a heartbeat. Offering a bunch more money is the only thing Holland could have done to get the deal done and, not be "afraid to pull the trigger". Of course then we would be listening to a different bitch from chemi.

[Habib21]

Think our buddy Paul MaClean would part with Spezza in Ottowa? They like the combination of Norris Winner Karlsson and Spezza to build around so I doubt they would move Spezza, but who knows. Maybe Maclean would enjoy some wings who know the system to come over and help build the team and run the puck possession style he knows all to well.

Send them Filp, Franzen and Tatar for Spezza and a 2nd round pick.

Then Do your best to sign Doan!

If no Doan than see what Semin will cost and possibly look at signing him to short term contract.

[jaadam4]

Can Ben Gordon and Charlie V skate?

lol

[froot loops]

That is really Ilitch's call on the money. But the rumor was those two going in a package deal and then they went in a package deal. Its hard to tell, but it sounds like Suter didn't give the Predators a chance to match the Wild's offer, did they give Detroit a chance? Thats unclear and probably once Parise decided to go there the jig was up.

It just seems like a lot of money for these guys. And with Stuart leaving and Lidstrom retiring, I'm not sure the rebuild is not beginning right now. Even if you got Suter, people would have been ecstatic, but the team probably isn't any closer than they were when they got bounced.

[chemiclord]

"The problem is with your viewpoint is you think Holland had some deal that he could have done and he just didn't do it becaus of the plan."
---------------------Actually what I'm garnering is chemi thinks Holland should have offered a bunch more money. He's using the term "afraid to pull the trigger". I'm certain had the offer been accepted he would have "pulled the trigger" in a heartbeat. Offering a bunch more money is the only thing Holland could have done to get the deal done and, not be "afraid to pull the trigger". Of course then we would be listening to a different bitch from chemi.

Kinda.

Holland's MO is that he doesn't "overpay", either in FA or in trades. That's the major reason WHY the Wings have lately not made a big splash in FA since the cap was initiated. It's not a big deal when there's no salary cap and your owner basically throws his wallet at you.

Since the cap, Holland has been focused on value. Which 99 times out of 100, is a good thing, especially when you have a great thing going like the Wings had. I mean, think about it... Holland's plan has kept the Wings a relevant contending team for damn near 20 years. That is EXCEPTIONAL in ANY economic environment. That he has ALSO done so in a salary cap era shows how effective his plan is.

The only argument I am making here is that this situation, right now, is that 1 time out of 100 where I don't think it's going to work.

The Red Wings, right now, aren't good enough to win the Cup as they currently stand. Sorry, but it's true. Meanwhile, they simply don't have the talent outside of a small handful of players in the minors that will be able to continue the rotation that has made the Red Wings be able to sustain their success.

One thing that I have been led to understand was at the last trade deadline the major reason Holland wasn't able to make a move was because everyone was asking for Jurco and/or Smith.

Well... if Holland thinks this core can win the Cup, those two players are EXACTLY who he has to move to get the players to do that. YES, it hurts the future. But that's the risk you take to win now.

Another option is to start being a seller, see what the market is for your aging core, and see what you can get for them, i.e. starting the rebuild now.

Holland's method, to me, doesn't prevent that rebuild from happening, and doesn't do much to win now; thus it's the worst of both worlds.

This isn't a criticism of Holland... when you're picking at the bottom of the barrel for twenty years, eventually the well is going to dry up. Other GMs have also gotten wise to the Wings using planes to scout European talent, so that well has dried up as well.

I'm fine with that. I get the rebuild is coming. I'm not upset that the Wings are going to have to "suffer" two or three bad seasons after TWO DAMN DECADES of success.

I just want to know; does Holland think they can win now? If so... do whatever it takes to win now.

If Holland doesn't, let's start being a seller and get the pieces that can lead to the rebuild finishing sooner rather than later.

Either way, make a choice as to the team's direction... because same ol', same ol' isn't going to cut it anymore.

As for Lidstrom... I never said his loss wasn't going to hurt. I said it wasn't going to hurt as much as a lot of fans thought it would. Listening to the fan response, they thought the Wings might as well not bother fielding a defense if Lidstrom wasn't there.

[froot loops]

Either way, make a choice as to the team's direction... because same ol', same ol' isn't going to cut it anymore.

They still have 11 million in cap space, they can add players. You are presenting an either or situation and it doesn't have to be like that. Plus that whole selling off players to jump start a rebuild always sounds better in theory than in practice.

[chemiclord]

They still have 11 million in cap space, they can add players. You are presenting an either or situation and it doesn't have to be like that. Plus that whole selling off players to jump start a rebuild always sounds better in theory than in practice.

Except I really don't see any players that are available right now that will particularly improve the Red Wings.

Doan could be the power forward that will help... but the bigger concern is with the defense. Who is out there that the Wings should pony up for? Suter was pretty much it in this FA season.

I suppose you could say, "Bring Smith up, roll the dice this year, and try and make a run for Weber next off-season," and I wouldn't necessarily say that's a bad idea... but I think you'll see the same problem that we had with Suter this year. Someone is going to throw a bank at him.

[froot loops]

I think you have to be patient with the money. You didn't get Suter, so you go value hunting, if it isn't there, you wait. And its easier to throw a lot of money at Weber, he's better. Losing out on Suter isn't the worst thing in the world. It might hurt you short term, but if you spend the money wisely it will work.

[Tom]

"Plus that whole selling off players to jump start a rebuild always sounds better in theory than in practice."

Exactly. The other day I heard some guy on the radio say the Wings should do what the Oilers do and try to build with young talent while getting rid of the overpriced players. The problem with that is, Edmonton hasn't seen the playoffs since they made the Finals (was that in 06?).

The Wings are a talented team but they will probably struggle to make the playoffs because they lost two of their best defensemen and one of them is a no-brainer hall of famer. That said, they still have talent and a few decent moves could put them back as contenders.

And as much as I wanted Suter, I don't think big splashes in free agency always pay off. Is it me, or do they seem to hurt teams in the long run?

[lions&tigers&wings...yea]

Yeah, and Edmonton had the last 3 first overall picks...which they promptly all used on forwards.

At least they are one of the few teams to ever be able to ice a first forward line of three first overall picks in a row (Hall - Nugent-Hopkins - Yakupov). I have a feeling they will be a lottery team next year as well.