Red Wings

[jaadam4]

I really am disappointed in missing out on Weber. The kid is a complete stud.

[froot loops]

Its quite clear I've said they aren't better than they were last year, and getting Suter wasn't going to make them better. But they are Cup contenders still. The LA Kings hadn't won a playoff series in forever, they were an 8th seed and they won the Cup.

They made a huge offer to Suter. Mike Ilitch even went out there to woo him. Suter wanted to play with Parise. Its pretty simple really, they gave big effort to get Suter but it wasn't in the cards. Sometimes it is just better to sit back when it doesn't go out the way you plan. They already have three contracts with double digit years. Nowhere has it been said that the Red Wings didn't offer enough money. Its not Holland's money, Ilitch was there, they didn't get a chance to match Minnesota's offer. You harp on Holland and his value, but the contract they offered Suter violated any value Holland might cling to, Suter is nowhere near being a 100 million dollar player.

You are right that Quincey, Tootoo and Samuelsson aren't really the issue.

Then what was that post about when Quincey signed? You got hot and bothered because of it and compared it to Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva. Did someone else post that?

Holland has addressed NEITHER of them, and one of them (the elite defenseman) I no longer see how Holland even CAN address it.

But it sounds like you are intent on ripping on him if he doesn't win the cup and sell the farm for an undetermined player. You keep on saying you do everything possible. Tell me what you are proposing. I think they are short a few players. I agree that he can't address it now, thats why he shouldn't try. It is a position of weakness right now, when you strike a deal from that position you get stuck with a Ben Gordon on your team.

But that cap space will come in handy as time goes on.

[jaadam4]

it also doesn't help that we dont have a farm system or young prospects to trade for pieces.

[chemiclord]

But it sounds like you are intent on ripping on him if he doesn't win the cup and sell the farm for an undetermined player. You keep on saying you do everything possible. Tell me what you are proposing. I think they are short a few players. I agree that he can't address it now, thats why he shouldn't try. It is a position of weakness right now, when you strike a deal from that position you get stuck with a Ben Gordon on your team.

But that cap space will come in handy as time goes on.

I'm actually NOT saying that Holland MUST sell the farm.

I am saying the Wings are rapidly reaching a point where Holland has to make a choice. He either has to go "all in", or he needs to "fold." If he thinks this core has another couple runs in them, then he needs to say, "We'll worry about the future once we get there," put Jurco and Smith and Pulkkinen (thanks Packfan, couldn't remember that name for the life of me) on the trading block, and see what happens.

If he doesn't, then blow it up, start selling assets, and get a head start on the next rebuild with the youngins as the center pieces to the next core of the team. It can, and does, work if you have the right management in place. Holland has shown he can rebuild a team, I want to believe he can do so again.

I have absolutely NO interest seeing a slow bleed-out of this team, limping into the playoffs and getting bounced in the first and second round for the next three to four years on the off chance they can catch lightning in a bottle and be this years' Kings. This team, as it currently is constructed, is going nowhere fast. Either shit or get off the pot, Holland. I really don't care which.

[lions&tigers&wings...yea]

it also doesn't help that we dont have a farm system or young prospects to trade for pieces.

You keep making that statement and it simply isn't true.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/

We have a top-10 prospect system...for picking where we have and with the number of picks we've had high in drafts that's incredibly good. Holland said every GM that talked to him at the trade deadline was looking to acquire Pulkkinen in any trade they made.

The wings have all of the pieces to make the trades they need to...Holland in fact has tried to make moves, he had a serious offer in on Weber before he signed and had the best offer on Nash but Columbus wouldn't trade him to the wings no matter what was coming back. Holland isn't stupid and he isn't sitting on his hands doing nothing...he's trying to make some deals and the simple fact that two in-division teams refused to trade with him won't make me get my pitchfork and torch to chase the guy out of town because he is part of the brain trust (with Jimmy D and Nill) that built this team and have had so much success in my lifetime. If one manager/management group has earned some leniency, it's this one.

[froot loops]

It certainly isn't an all in or fold situation. The whole selling off the parts to rebuild is not realistic. Pkus it isn't an easier path to a championship,

[chemiclord]

It certainly isn't an all in or fold situation. The whole selling off the parts to rebuild is not realistic. Pkus it isn't an easier path to a championship,

Glad to know you're okay with first round exits for the foreseeable future.

I'm not.

[jaadam4]

You keep making that statement and it simply isn't true.

http://www.hockeysfuture.com/team-rankings/

We have a top-10 prospect system...for picking where we have and with the number of picks we've had high in drafts that's incredibly good. Holland said every GM that talked to him at the trade deadline was looking to acquire Pulkkinen in any trade they made.

This is just where we disagree.

[jaadam4]

Philly is front loading the contract for Weber to the tune of 56 mil in the first 4 years.

Smart move. I wish Holland wouldve done this.

[froot loops]

Glad to know you're okay with first round exits for the foreseeable future.

I'm not.

I know, I'm definitely OK with numerous 1st round exits. I'm glad we have tough fans like you to guide the Wings on how it should be done.


pANDs

You're presenting a false dichotnomy, go for it or sell things off. If there is a big player to be had they should go for him. By all accounts they did go for Suter, they made a great offer, but he went to Minnesota to play with Parise. Something that has been rumored for a year. You're blaming Holland, was he supposed to bring handcuffs on the recruiting trip? I seriously haven't seen anything to suggest that they handled it wrongly. And they did go over value in their bidding, Suter is not worth that.

As far as being on the wrong side of 30, the Wings have been the old team for a long time. There's very little correlation between going for it and the Wings winning a title. They've won 4 cups in 20 years and they've had numerous 1st round exits all across those 20 years. This is the first 1st round exit in 6 years and you seem to be in full blown panic mode.

And I guess I just have less faith in selling off players for a rebuild. In some cases that might be sufficient, in the Red Wings case it a fools errand. And certainly, even if Holland wanted to do that, the man in charge wouldn't sign off on it.

[chemiclord]

You're presenting a false dichotnomy, go for it or sell things off. If there is a big player to be had they should go for him. By all accounts they did go for Suter, they made a great offer, but he went to Minnesota to play with Parise. Something that has been rumored for a year. You're blaming Holland, was he supposed to bring handcuffs on the recruiting trip? I seriously haven't seen anything to suggest that they handled it wrongly. And they did go over value in their bidding, Suter is not worth that.

It's not just Suter. The excuse Holland made for not making a move at this last trade deadline was that everyone was asking for Pulkkinen. My response was, "So?" That's what you sometimes have to do... mortgage the future to win now.

As far as being on the wrong side of 30, the Wings have been the old team for a long time. There's very little correlation between going for it and the Wings winning a title. They've won 4 cups in 20 years and they've had numerous 1st round exits all across those 20 years. This is the first 1st round exit in 6 years and you seem to be in full blown panic mode.

The Wings also had ample talent in the wings waiting to step in as players aged. They had a huge advantage in scouting overseas, which allowed them to get steals like Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the 6th and 7th rounds.

They don't have that edge anymore. The talent isn't waiting this time around. They don't have those mid-to-late draft steals, and they've kinda missed on a lot of top picks recently. The cupboard isn't ENTIRELY bare, but it's not exactly stocked either, especially with the elite talent that they'll need to fill Datsyuk and Zetterberg's skates in the near future (I don't include Lidstrom because it's rather silly to expect ANYONE to fill his skates).

The rebuild, at this point, is inevitable. The question becomes do you take your shot with this core right now, or do you surrender to that inevitable and start the process as soon as possible.

And I guess I just have less faith in selling off players for a rebuild. In some cases that might be sufficient, in the Red Wings case it a fools errand. And certainly, even if Holland wanted to do that, the man in charge wouldn't sign off on it.

I'm only interested in selling off players and starting a rebuild if Holland decides that this core doesn't have another Cup run in them. In that case, it's pointless to prolong the inevitable, and they might as well cash in their chips and start over.

It usually fails because most rebuilding teams are in rebuilding mode because they have incompetent management that got them to rock bottom to begin with. A competent front office (and I do believe the Red Wings are), can take those assets and retool fairly quickly.

But if he DOES think there's enough left with this core, then he needs to make some serious moves... because this team, as constructed, would need a Los Angles Kings type of flash in the pan to get there. I don't hold much hope of that gamble paying off.

They needed another top line D-man, and a Top 6 forward at the start of last season. They needed that at the start of this off-season, and they still need it now. I'm not sure how they can solve that at this point, though.

[froot loops]

Still a missed point, the man in charge is not interested in selling off players. You're making it out like Holland is king of the castle, he isn't.

I'm not sure how they can solve that at this point, though.

They can't solve it right now, there is nobody left in free agency. But to do something drastic to satisfy your demands is actually a Joe D style panic. You wait and bide your time.

The excuse Holland made for not making a move at this last trade deadline was that everyone was asking for Pulkkinen.

You keep on saying stuff like that but I heard Holland and I read a lot of things, I didn't read that. And what is the context, what difference maker were they turning down at the trade deadline? Rick Nash wouldn't be traded here and the trade deadline in the NHL was a nothingburger. Nobody made much of a difference at all.

They don't have that edge anymore. The talent isn't waiting this time around. They don't have those mid-to-late draft steals, and they've kinda missed on a lot of top picks recently. The cupboard isn't ENTIRELY bare, but it's not exactly stocked either, especially with the elite talent that they'll need to fill Datsyuk and Zetterberg's skates in the near future

But nobody has any kind of edge, you may pooh pooh the Kings, but thats the way the NHL is. Its a crapshoot.

[jaadam4]

Wow, this is some kind of analysis on Semin. Is this dude really that bad?


He was ripped by a TSN panel on July 1. Former NHL coach Marc Crawford said Semin has “no character'' and that he falls into the “complete loser'' category. Analyst Pierre McGuire said he's not a great teammate and called him the “ultimate coach-killer.''

[chemiclord]

That seems to be the consensus; million dollar skills, ten cent brain.

[jaadam4]

I'd still roll the dice on a short term deal with him. If any coach can get him to play, its sure as shit Babcock. The dude averages 30 goals a year the last 4 years. That's not an easy task in the NHL.