Fire Dan Campbell!

[froot loops]

Until recently coaches always opted conservatively on 4th down. The main factor was called blame shifting, by opting to punt or kick a field goal you could avoid getting blamed as a coach for a failed 4th down try. So Campbell does deserve credit for making those decisions but I wonder if there is a limit to how many times any coach can have those decisions.

[Mainevent]

When they hired Campbell it was really only going to be a huge home run or laughable failure. There was no in between. Complete failure at all levels today, and we are probably firmly on the down slope to the latter.

On the bright side, this was an easy money making game today if you are the type of person that is into such things.

[JGSpartan]

It's just a matter of learning when NOT to go for it on 4th. On your own side of the field and 4th and long are when not to unless you're in out of time mode. Inches to go is probably acceptable if close to the 50.

Before this game they were converting 75 percent of the time on 4th. They had reason to be confident going in. They just need to not push it when it's not needed.

They also need to find a kicker they have confidence in at the very least from 50 and in. Preferably more. I know the keeping Prater idea is an easy target for ire. It's not that I don't think kicker isn't important or that we are better off without him as they clearly aren't. Did he even want to be here though? For a rebuild when he had the chance to go sign with a contender? You can only franchise him twice before the third year gives him QB money. I'm not sure assuming we could have kept him is even really accurate.

[Mainevent]

Big caveat that I did not watch the game yesterday, but the 4th down stuff against NE to me is more a symptom of the larger issues - they knew they couldn’t stop a team with no real weapons at WR and a 3rd string rookie QB. And that’s a problem. And from everything I’ve read, the 4th down plays were pretty bad too.

[chemiclord]

Yes, he did.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2021/02/12/lions-kicker-matt-prater-wants-back-but-heres-why-thats-no-guarantee/6736962002/

My theory is that the Lions front office (to borrow a wrestling term) worked their way into a shoot; they had told themselves internally that a big legged kicker wasn't particularly important in the type of offense they wanted to run to the point where they couldn't let themselves back down. There's really no other reason that makes sense. Prater's skills hadn't really diminished, and he bounced back pretty much right to his averages the following year. The money they saved from letting him go really was largely insignificant, and certainly wasn't used to bring anyone of note in.

[JGSpartan]

They weren't winning the trenches on offense. Which is a first for them this year. I would say they should have learned from that and stopped going for it. The hole was dug already though for the last 4 tries. Field goals weren't gonna cut it.

You're right that it's a symptom of not trusting their defense. They feel they need to steal extra possessions. They honestly aren't wrong to think so. That means there are major issues that need addressing on defense. How good do they need to be this year to deserve an offseason with some cash to do that?

[JGSpartan]

Yes, he did.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2021/02/12/lions-kicker-matt-prater-wants-back-but-heres-why-thats-no-guarantee/6736962002/

My theory is that the Lions front office (to borrow a wrestling term) worked their way into a shoot; they had told themselves internally that a big legged kicker wasn't particularly important in the type of offense they wanted to run to the point where they couldn't let themselves back down. There's really no other reason that makes sense. Prater's skills hadn't really diminished, and he bounced back pretty much right to his averages the following year. The money they saved from letting him go really was largely insignificant, and certainly wasn't used to bring anyone of note in.

Ok, fair enough. I want to be here always means if the pay is right. He signed for less money than he was making here with Arizona. I don't know if that's because he wasn't offered what he wanted here or not offered at all. I think the bigger mistake is not drafting McPherson or York after he's gone.

NFL teams often undervalue kickers. We definitely agree on that.

[ghandi]

Until recently coaches always opted conservatively on 4th down. The main factor was called blame shifting, by opting to punt or kick a field goal you could avoid getting blamed as a coach for a failed 4th down try. So Campbell does deserve credit for making those decisions but I wonder if there is a limit to how many times any coach can have those decisions.

The riverboat gambler coach is admirable for awhile, but when players start to sense that it is costing them wins, then the mood changes......It seems a majority of the decisions come down to he has no faith in his defense or his kicker. The miss in Minnesota late in the game may have doomed the risky FG forever in his mind.

[froot loops]

It's just a matter of learning when NOT to go for it on 4th. On your own side of the field and 4th and long are when not to unless you're in out of time mode. Inches to go is probably acceptable if close to the 50.

Before this game they were converting 75 percent of the time on 4th. They had reason to be confident going in. They just need to not push it when it's not needed.

They also need to find a kicker they have confidence in at the very least from 50 and in. Preferably more. I know the keeping Prater idea is an easy target for ire. It's not that I don't think kicker isn't important or that we are better off without him as they clearly aren't. Did he even want to be here though? For a rebuild when he had the chance to go sign with a contender? You can only franchise him twice before the third year gives him QB money. I'm not sure assuming we could have kept him is even really accurate.

Prater said he wanted to be back, they moved on for Randy Bullock.

[froot loops]

Yes, he did.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sp...ee/6736962002/

My theory is that the Lions front office (to borrow a wrestling term) worked their way into a shoot; they had told themselves internally that a big legged kicker wasn't particularly important in the type of offense they wanted to run to the point where they couldn't let themselves back down. There's really no other reason that makes sense. Prater's skills hadn't really diminished, and he bounced back pretty much right to his averages the following year. The money they saved from letting him go really was largely insignificant, and certainly wasn't used to bring anyone of note in.

This is probably the correct view. I will always contend a kicker is even more important when a team is rebuilding unless you want to go full tank mode. Winning a couple games close games is a lifeline for new coaching staffs.

[JGSpartan]

I already responded to that.

[TheLondonLion]

This is the EIGHTH kicker they’ve cycled through. It’s just mismanagement at this point.

I’ve always thought kickers were very underrated. They can win or lose you a few games a season

I’ve had some Lions fans tell me Prater had fallen off and wasn’t that good anymore but I’d take him over any of these scrubs.

[Futureshock]

Sometimes while reading comments away from here, I come accross one that hits some good points or ideas. This is one is a little long, but most is well thought out:

Oh, the lack of veteran leadership, guys who have been there, done it, and are still doing it. This really stands out to me too. We have nothing there beyond our coaches. Sure they have plenty of NFL experience to teach the rookies how, but who is going to teach them how?

Also, there is a gap with that when you don't have the veteran leadership on the field. At the very least the offense should have had a proven, knowledgeable QB to transition with, not a retread / throw away from another team. And the defense needed more than Tracy Walker there, and Brockers is not cutting it. A smart GM would have had a veteran LB there to tie the front and back together. And another retread, Anzalone, is failing hard there too.

I can see what their plan was, but it is failing. Part of the issue is that the roster was so thin, and the cap so bad, from Quinntricia, that they had to put their eggs all in one basket, so when that player lets them down they have nothing there to help recover beyond coaching.

Sure some of these guys look promising. Board for example, and JuJu Hughes. But for the most part, these retreads have been a bust. The special teams guys they brought in seem to have a higher rate of success in stepping up to take quality snaps on offense or defense, mostly defense, than the pure positional players but can we for the love of my sanity please stop team building on failure. Chances are pretty damn good that if they failed elsewhere they are going to fail here too.

Sure we have some wins, Harris being another, but overall, the results are not too good. I have no idea why Anzalone who has hit his ceiling of being an unreliable starter that will have ups and downs is taking snaps over Board or Barnes. Well Barnes I kind of see it. Love the guy, wanted the pick, but his game is just not translating to the pros. I am not sure if that is coaching or player but I have yet to see Shep "coach up" a project LB with any success. Rodrigo is what he was in college, a physical, rangy, two down linebacker that tends to bite on play action and needs a LOT of development in pass coverage. Which brings me to my last point...

Not all of the coaches are developing the young talent. The DL is a very slow go, and overall their scheme and game plan sucks. I am not sure if that is Wash or Glenn, but either way, something needs to give there. Same with our LB's. As a matter of fact, the regression in Barnes is very concerning to me. Even with Aubrey Pleasant who has shown he can develop DB's, we have a head scratcher in AO. I am really hoping it is a setback due to his injury and that AO can bounce back.

What's going on with Hock? With all the former players and TE coaches around I would expect Hock to be featured and utilized to the utmost of his potential in year 4. So far we have seen some decent results in one out of five games. That is not good enough. IMO Hock is not an in line blocking TE. They put him 1 on 1 against elite pass rushers all the time and he literally gets rag dolled out there to the point that he is constantly injured and not able to perform in the passing game.

Good coaches know they players, and they know how to use them and how to get the most out of them. I just don't see it. Even Ben Johnson is showing his shortcomings there. Falling back on a Miami offense with Jarvis Landry for inspiration should be one part of it, not the entire offense... If not for Deuce and the running game all we would have is St. Brown because that is all BJ knows how to use and plan for. Even Hank Fraley who is a damn good OL coach was out coached last weekend. I don't care that it is Belichick, make some damn adjustments, and if you cannot, then your scheme sucks. And that falls onto MCDC.

The lack of knowing X's and O's really puts Dan Campbell at a disadvantage. He is the quality control check, and if he don't know what the answer is, how can he check to see if his coaches are getting it right? You could really sum a lot of this up with, "the blind leading the blind", and it is almost comical to watch, if it did not hurt so damn bad.

In the short term, they need to get MCDC and these coaches some help. The problem is, any real help in those regards is probably already employed. On the offensive side of the ball it would be hard for the Lions to entice Sean Peyton away from his emerging broadcast career, but they should at least attempt it. He could help sure up some of the clock management and quality control issues with HC and OC decisions.

On the defensive side it is much harder. For one, they need to stop changing the scheme year to year. It is hard enough for the GM to build around one scheme and for the young players to develop in their fit in that scheme. Almost all of the best defenses in the modern NFL are a 3-4 base with an elite athlete or two that they scheme around. Very few teams can put their hand in the dirt with their front 4 and just get after it and win. You have to have elite talent on your DL to win with 4 against 5 and the Lions did not have it and they have not drafted it. This is a HUGE mistake IMO that is a large part of the failure of the defense this year. The Lions defense this year was predicated on rookies and retreads winning 2 on 1's and blitzing from the second level which exposes their lack of experience.... What a complete failure by AG and MCDC...

I have serious issues with a lot more than can be reasonable fixed. While now is not the time to replace MCDC, the Lions should start the search now. As much as I like Dan Campbell, and I freaking love the guy from what I know and have seen of him, he is not the guy. He will need to go sooner or later so they may as well start making preparations now. Nothing official, nothing set in stone, just start the evaluation process, see where they failed and get ready to move forward. Let Holmes make the choice and bring in his guy along with collaboration and input from the front office.

Maybe get a guy with head coaching experience at some level this time around. And I do not mean interim experience, I mean a guy that has a strength, with X's and O's, probably on the offensive side of the ball since that is what dictates wins in the modern era. Personally I favor guys that know special teams, Belichick and Harbaugh are two of my favorite NFL coaches. I would say to give Dave Fipp a shot but he is a bit off in some areas, may not fit everything you need in a HC. But special teams coaches understand the game from a different angle and they are usually very good at clock management.

[LightninBoy]

A few thoughts:

* Nothing really can or should be done from a HC or GM perspective until year 3.Some key decisions were grounded in the idea that these first two years are throw away. Year 3 is when it all should come together and a good, playoff contending team built. It sucks for the us, the fans, but I think that was the understanding implicit in MCDC's deal.
* That doesn't excuse the multiple red flags: game management mistakes, lackluster game planning, key draft picks not performing or developing, and very little talent improvement overall after 2 off seasons
* Experience matters. I highlighted the lack of experience across the board with this regime when it was formed. Everyone was new in their role and some (like Campbell) were even skipping typical stepping stones to their role. You can hire newbies with a few spots to bring fresh ideas or lock in a rising star, but it was a mistake to do it at every major role.
* I wonder if the regime valued NFL playing experience way too highly in their coaching searches.

[Futureshock]

Like a gambling addict, every try is the time it will work. He IS as arrogant as any other Lions coach. No room for him, his ego and wins.




Dan Campbell explains why he doesn’t regret any 4th-down attempts vs. Patriots


The Lions head coach said he was planning on being more conservative on Sunday, but game situations changed the approach.

By Jeremy Reisman

What a bunch of BS. Can someone get Parcells to call this guy and tell him to stop this dumb sh!t. He goes into the game thinking to be conservative and 7 plays in he's gambling again.