Detroit Tigers

[Fraquar]

Spending without a nucleus is just wasted money.
You can look at every rebuild and see that.
Tigers made the playoffs just once in the first 8 years after big daddy Illitch opened the pocket book - this shit doesn't happen overnight without a nucleus to build around - and they didn't have one when big daddy opened the checkbook any more than they do now.

When you've lived a long life, you've seen how utterly pathetic the Tigers farm system has been at producing every day starters - at any position. That didn't change in big daddy's era, and really has been the barrier to success for over 40 years.

When was the last time you saw the Tigers produce multiple starters from their farm system in a bunch? The late 70's......

[froot loops]

This shit takes time? It's been 5 years already and they are farther away.

They did not have a nucleus when they started spending after 2003, it was the Ilitch's most successful rebuild. They may never, ever get a nucleus with their farm system. They don't have enough top prospects down there to even entertain the thought of a nucleus.

If you wait for their shitty farm system to produce anything before you spend anything, you will have endless seasons of challenging the 1962 Mets and 2003 Tigers. They don't even spend enough to find replacement level players. But they are pocketing some serious profits now.

[froot loops]

One thing DD had right was the idea you can use the farm system to trade prospects for established players.

[chemiclord]

Spending without a nucleus is just wasted money.
You can look at every rebuild and see that.
Tigers made the playoffs just once in the first 8 years after big daddy Illitch opened the pocket book - this shit doesn't happen overnight without a nucleus to build around - and they didn't have one when big daddy opened the checkbook any more than they do now.

When you've lived a long life, you've seen how utterly pathetic the Tigers farm system has been at producing every day starters - at any position. That didn't change in big daddy's era, and really has been the barrier to success for over 40 years.

When was the last time you saw the Tigers produce multiple starters from their farm system in a bunch? The late 70's......

I mean, it might help if they actually invested in their minor league structure and analytics... but Chris I. hasn't been particularly keen on spending THERE, either.

[froot loops]

I don't get why Fraquar thinks Chris Ilitch pocketing the profits is a better use of spending money than actually fielding a team that doesn't threaten the 62 Mets.

[chemiclord]

I don't get why Fraquar thinks Chris Ilitch pocketing the profits is a better use of spending money than actually fielding a team that doesn't threaten the 62 Mets.

Because he believes the bullshit that the Tigers were losing money hand over fist. Ya know, the thing Chris Illitch implied but never outright said because he knew it was a fucking lie and that the Tigers were ALWAYS profitable even when their payroll was around $200 million?

Fact is, Chris Illitch has finally gotten what he wants; a team that will make money without a single ticket being sold, and that's where the Tigers are going to stay.

[froot loops]

You will never find a shortage of people willing to believe these sports owners are losing money even when it doesn't make a bit of sense. They took in 270 million are in both 2019 and 2018 according to Forbes. A lot of the revenue the Ilitch family takes in from the Tigers wouldn't be considered in that.

But the logic behind saying only spend when you have a nucleus and be the same guy who complains that the Tiger farm system can't develop position players is galaxy brain thinking.

[chemiclord]

Well, that's probably explained by Fraquar's almost masturbatory fantasy over "developing players from within," which is a trait he carries for pretty much ALL Detroit teams, I've noticed. Superficially, he's not wrong, except when you do so at the exclusion of actually... ya know... having talented players.

[jaadam4]

It’s amazing Avila is still around. How many more years can they stick with him?

[chemiclord]

It’s amazing Avila is still around. How many more years can they stick with him?

Avila is doing EXACTLY what the owner wants him to do; keep payroll down and hype up "the farm." Avila MIGHT eventually get tossed for appearance's sake (though also consider how long Chris hung with Randy "Radar" Smith), but the next GM is going to have the exact same walking orders.

[froot loops]

I'm more sympathetic than most to Radar and Avila, expecting success with these type of restraints is monumental task. The farm system has been a mess going back to when Fetzer stripped it in the 80s to cut costs and it probably wasn't that good prior to that except for a couple extraordinary drafts in the 70s. For whatever reason the franchise was late to the game in the Caribbean and has never caught up. They barely get useful players outside the first round, they aren't players internationally and they don't beef up the upper levels with any type of 4A players because that costs money.

All of this was known 5 years ago when they started this rebuild mess. You cannot rely solely on 1st round picks and that's about what their strategy is.

[kdk2002]

It’s amazing Avila is still around. How many more years can they stick with him?

He's the Matt Millen of baseball.

[Cody_Russell]

He's the Matt Millen of baseball.

It’s turning out to be another WCF - Millen relationship if you consider the results and complacency.

[chemiclord]

It’s turning out to be another WCF - Millen relationship if you consider the results and complacency.

There's some notable differences. By most accounts I've heard, WCF "wanted" to win. He just demanded that he win HIS way, and he actively scorned the peons that dared to tell him how to play with his toy. That last contract extension to Millen, who WCF considered a personal friend at that point, was more a middle finger to the peasantry than anything.

Contrast that with Chris Illitch who just doesn't give a fuck what the fans want or desire. He doesn't even give a fuck about winning. His only driving impetus is to have a team that doesn't need any support from the "fickle" fans in order to make money. Make no mistake, he'd love to have a World Series contender with an $80 million payroll simply because that would be more money in his pocket, but that's not a goal in the slightest.

[jaadam4]

Not a very pretty picture

https://motorcitybengals.com/2021/01/22/detroit-tigers-al-avila-drafts/

Now, simply getting draft picks to the majors isn’t necessarily a sign of strong drafting. For example, the Washington Nationals lead all of baseball with 12 MLB players from the past five drafts, but those 12 have combined to produce -0.7 WAR. The Orioles and Reds have both seen just two draft picks reach the majors, but both teams have gotten positive WAR from their smaller hauls.

The Detroit Tigers fall right in the middle, with 5 players reaching the majors — Kyle Funkhouser, Bryan Garcia, Casey Mize, John Schreiber, and Tarik Skubal. But of those five, only Garcia has posted a positive WAR, and their combined WAR of -1.6 is the second worst in baseball.

Only the Houston Astros have gotten less value from their draft picks over the past five years, with -2.5 WAR coming from six players. But that isn’t quite accurate, because Houston traded three of those players — Jake Rogers (-0.5 WAR), Corbin Martin (-0.2), and Josh Rojas (-0.5) — to help land Justin Verlander and Zack Greinke. Knowing when to trade your prospects is a skill.

A handful of teams have managed to get excellent production over the last five years. Cleveland leads them all with 15.2 WAR, thanks mostly to a 2016 draft that saw them land Shane Bieber, Aaron Civale, and Zach Plesac. The Cardinals (14.1), Dodgers (9.9), and Blue Jays (8.8) aren’t too far behind.