US Politics - 2020 Presidential Election - GOP v Dem cage fight (ENTER AT YOUR PERIL)

[Whitley]

Yeah, there's one little problem with doing them piecemeal. You'll get nothing.

Because of shitty Senate rules, anything that isn't packaged into a Reconciliation bill needs 60 votes (not 50) for cloture. So congratulations, you've wasted a bunch of time and gotten nothing. If performative politics matters to you... fine, I guess, but I doubt the bulk of Americans would pay attention long enough to care.

Yeah, the Democrats could change those rules... but oh, wait. Sinema and Manchin refuse to budge on that too.

There are 161 exceptions to the filibuster.


Biden spent a year kissing Manchin's ass and got nothing. So I fail to see the difference here. Biden has handed his presidency over to Manchin and Sinema.....and shocking nothing has gotten done.

Biden could do a lot of things with executive orders but refuses to do so.

Student Loans are a perfect example. Biden is agonizing over forgiving any student loans and wants them means tested. If Biden didn't have the authority to forgive loans then he doesn't the authority to forgive what he has done so far. The thing is he doesn't want to do it.

[Whitley]

Trump, btw, is a symptom of the problem not the problem himself.

The reason he has such traction is that he speaks to the pain in of the working class. And he traffics in it is not your fault...it is the others. The ones that are different from you and that has always had some traction in American politics.

Nearly everyone on the national political scene is owned by corporate donors on both sides. The average person doesn't see anyone that advocates for their issues. There is a reason that both parties go so hard for cultural fights. Because if you get everyone inflamed over a cultural fight then the fact you have done absolutely for your voters goes by the board.

[chemiclord]

Ah yes, the "both parties are the same, man" argument, only from the left.

It's just as tiring as when Trump clowns do it.

[Fraquar]

Trump, btw, is a symptom of the problem not the problem himself.

The reason he has such traction is that he speaks to the pain in of the working class. And he traffics in it is not your fault...it is the others. The ones that are different from you and that has always had some traction in American politics.

Nearly everyone on the national political scene is owned by corporate donors on both sides. The average person doesn't see anyone that advocates for their issues. There is a reason that both parties go so hard for cultural fights. Because if you get everyone inflamed over a cultural fight then the fact you have done absolutely for your voters goes by the board.

Biden don't know fuck-all about the pain of the working class - except what people tell him.
You have to have been there to understand it.
Private schools (bought and paid for) his entire growing up - then Senate for 40 years......

Fuck this shit.
Anyone with half a brain knows if you promise the "working class" an increased minimum wage - literally seconds after that becomes law the prices of everything go up to keep you right where you are.
But shit, that sells like hotcakes, they will think you are the next Michael Jackson singing that line......

[dpatnod]

Biden's failings >>>>>>>>> Drumph's stupidity.

[dpatnod]

Anyone with half a brain knows if you promise the "working class" an increased minimum wage - literally seconds after that becomes law the prices of everything go up to keep you right where you are.
But shit, that sells like hotcakes, they will think you are the next Michael Jackson singing that line......

Cool story bro.

It's weird that raising wages works in every other country except this one. Wonder why that is?

Maybe these legalized political bribes might be a bad thing.

[Da Geezer]

Problem there (and with much of Marx's work) is that humans would sooner embrace fascism rather than communism, and has been demonstrated frequently over the course of history.

Interesting statement. Care to elaborate? What is the difference between fascism and communism?

[Da Geezer]

The weakness is that the average person wants to feel secure, and doesn't want to think about how the sausage is made. They want politics to just work with the barest minimum amount of input on their end. Fascists and authoritarians promise them that. Just choose me to lead you and think about nothing else. I'll keep you safe. I'll keep you secure. Just don't ever question me or what I do.

It's music to their ears, no matter how much of a lie it winds up being; and humans fall for that lie time after time after time.

And this is no different than what the democratic Socialists offer. At least Communists are honest enough to say that they favor armed class warfare. Again, I'd like you to explain to me the difference between Hitler (fascist) and Stalin (socialist).

[chemiclord]

And this is no different than what the democratic Socialists offer. At least Communists are honest enough to say that they favor armed class warfare. Again, I'd like you to explain to me the difference between Hitler (fascist) and Stalin (socialist).

That... is not entirely untrue. There's a reason why pretty much every Communist Revolution has gone sideways and turned into fascism of a different flavor. It's also where Marx's theory winds up collapsing; it's predicated on the idea that the state will dissolve when it is no longer needed. Human nature... well... doesn't work that way.

[Da Geezer]

That... is not entirely untrue. There's a reason why pretty much every Communist Revolution has gone sideways and turned into fascism of a different flavor. It's also where Marx's theory winds up collapsing; it's predicated on the idea that the state will dissolve when it is no longer needed. Human nature... well... doesn't work that way.

Exactly, and precisely said.

It is about human nature, isn't it? When discussing the relative merits of economic systems it ultimately comes down to what you believe human nature is, be it good or evil. These are overly broad categories, but I don't know a more accurate way to differentiate them. Lord Acton said " Power tends to corrupt. Absolute power corrupts absolutely." I believe that. There is a lot of discussion on this thread about how politicians are or become corrupt. Or how folks seem to continually fall for politicians who promise to be for the middle, working-class, but ultimately enrich themselves.

Let me propose an alternative way of viewing it. Man is evil by nature. Call it depraved or call it greedy, but, I believe, when men get the power they screw it up. I believe power and money are interchangeable, one can be traded for the other. I understand that not many people are willing to live with this view of man, but for those who are, certain things follow. If power corrupts, then let's try to limit power as much as we can. Let's split up power so no one has a great deal of it. Atomize power. This looks like local school boards spending locally generated tax dollars to adopt curricula that the locals deem best for them. Or this can look like the SC giving the states the right to make their own laws regarding abortion.

Now, there is an economic system based on the assumption that man's nature is evil, and that system is capitalism. Throughout The Wealth of Nations, Smith comes back to the invisible hand of the free market directing man's acquisitive desires into something that works for the good of society. The more free the market, the more goods, and services are produced at the lowest cost. Look at the relatively free market for agricultural products vs. the market for drugs. Sam Walton developed a way to market general merchandise that saved his customers money. He got rich and good for him. He made my life better. Same with Bill Gates or Steve Jobs or Elon Musk. They each made my life a whole lot better, and I figure they deserve their wealth. America leads the world in innovation precisely because we allow genius to create and profit from their creation.

The socialists/communists/fascists have in common that they believe man is good, and having a good and just society amounts to putting the best people in charge. If you read Marx, or any of the socialists really, it is about the really good people being in charge. Plato actually tried this on the island of Syracuse, putting his Men of Gold in charge of his Men of Steel and Men of Straw. How did that work out? How did New Lebanon, Indiana work out? The fact is that the socialist system, call it social justice, or call it equity, has never in human history produced a society that benefitted society at large. Look at Bernie's beloved Cuba or Venezuela.

But look at the most successful society man has ever produced in our own USA. Capitalism has allowed us to have the highest standard of living in human history (and I include individual freedom as a benefit of capitalism). If you look at it empirically, capitalism is just better.

__________________________________________________ ______________________

I know there are no takers for discussing religion here, and that is fine. But Protestant Christianity is the other pillar (with Capitalism) of the most successful nation in human history. Protestants also believe man is depraved.

Fascism is basically socialism but letting private actors have title to the means of production. Socialists believe in the society (read government) actually owning the means of production, the "commanding heights" of the economy. In practice, they work out to be the same because the private owners under fascism either do what the government says or they are removed.

[chemiclord]

Eh... the USA actually isn't a home of innovation much anymore. Quality of living in the good ol' USA is actually near the bottom of all developed nations, because it turns out unfettered capitalism merely breeds tyrants of a different kind. The First Gilded Age was largely a nightmare for the majority of the population, and we're quickly reaching that point nowadays.

[TheLondonLion]

Really? I’d still say most of the best invention on earth comes from the US. Still a technological powerhouse.

Living standards I can see though.

[Whitley]

Biden don't know fuck-all about the pain of the working class - except what people tell him.
You have to have been there to understand it.
Private schools (bought and paid for) his entire growing up - then Senate for 40 years......

Fuck this shit.
Anyone with half a brain knows if you promise the "working class" an increased minimum wage - literally seconds after that becomes law the prices of everything go up to keep you right where you are.
But shit, that sells like hotcakes, they will think you are the next Michael Jackson singing that line......

Where did I mention Biden at all in the post you are all outraged over. Maybe you need to take a reading comprehension class.

[Whitley]

Eh... the USA actually isn't a home of innovation much anymore. Quality of living in the good ol' USA is actually near the bottom of all developed nations, because it turns out unfettered capitalism merely breeds tyrants of a different kind. The First Gilded Age was largely a nightmare for the majority of the population, and we're quickly reaching that point nowadays.

I think we are already there.

[Whitley]

Ah yes, the "both parties are the same, man" argument, only from the left.

It's just as tiring as when Trump clowns do it.

I didn't say the parties are the same. I said most national level politicians are owned bought and paid by corporations on both sides. Both parties are inclined to lean hard into cultural wars because that will fire up their bases and they won't see how both parties are screwing them over.

Republicans are a bunch of cucks that are scared of crossing the grassroots that LOVE Trump. They have become a cult of personality around him. Trump would have even deeper grip on the party if he would shut up about the election being stolen from him in 2020. Hey Trumpers, the election was not stolen from him. The Trump went to court 60+ times and only won once or twice and those were procedural victories. If there had been evidence to support Trump team allegations then they would have presented it in court. They didn't have any and a lot of judges reamed the Trump lawyers a new one for wasting their time. And they went before judges that were appointed by Bush 2, Clinton, Obama and even Trump himself.

Now, Trump didn't want to put in the work to be president once he got elected to the position. As a result, he governed like a traditional Republican for the most part once you look past his twitter feed. All power and money does is make a person more of who they are.

The republican grassroots love him though. Why? Because through his ability to read a crowd and see what works. And he was able to tap into the anger that working class people have (and so has Bernie Sanders to a degree as well) right now. They look around see the American dream and it is not a complicated dream. The dream of putting in 40 hours/week, being able to raise a family and maybe you are not rich but you don't have to worry about if you are going to make your bills with the next paycheck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKv6RcXa2UI

While funny this video is pretty accurate and kinda scary since it was made 15 years ago.

Trump combined that vein of anger with the idea that it was not their fault they had been screwed over. It was the others----not like them that was at fault. Blaming those not like us has always had some purchase in American politics. Then Trump said only he would be able to give these people want they had lost, because he had gamed the system for years and knew all the ins and outs of it.

Wrap it all together and you have a very easy answer (and a lot of Americans grasp the easy answer because the reality is much more complicated) and a guy that is saying he is willing to be a traitor to his class to help the working class. Very seductive, especially with Trump's ability to read the room.


Democrats, for the most part, are weak and very rarely fight hard. They don't look to punch the GOP, but they will fight to the death to make sure progressives don't get a foothold in the party. They will always punch to the left. And as the Republican party has become crazier and crazier. The Democratic party has decamped and gone further and further to the right on economic issues. The establishment Dems really don't care if Trump gets reelected or not. It is very easy to be the minority party and fundraise in DC.

The first thing establishment Democrats look at with their candidates is their ability to fundraise and typically back candidates that can fundraise the best (unless the candidate is a threat to the establishment). When Obama won in 2008, a lot of Dems thought demographics would be destiny. That this coalition that Obama had would always vote Democratic and all they had to do was wait the old Republicans to die off and it would be blue skies. That lead to very lazy politics and the eroding of their standing in those communities. You have to put the time in order to keep these people in your tent. Offer a vision. You can't run on the Orange man is bad and we are less bad so vote for us even though we have not done anything for you.


I don't see either party presenting an economic vision for working/middle class people. More and more wealth is zipping up from the working/middle class and going to the top 1%.