US Politics - 2020 Presidential Election - GOP v Dem cage fight (ENTER AT YOUR PERIL)

[chemiclord]

Any type of government you setup is going to have choke points. But it is noticeable that when the US helped various governments around the world, they don't replicate our presidential system rather they use the parliamentary style of democracy.

To me the biggest problems lately have been ideological sorting, gerrymandering at the federal and state level and the primary system. Even with all those choke points stuff still gets done by the government. There is also a lot of money to be made by covering politics like it were sports and that has had a detrimental affect in the last 25 years.

The United States of America really has a bit more in common with the EU than any one singular, homogeneous country, and the EU explicitly took cues from the USA for that reason. When you have such varied interests that all demand some degree of sovereignty, whether it is separate countries or in the USA's case several distinct colonies from many different backgrounds, Madisonian type arrangements are usually the settlement that will get all the different power players on board.

The USA probably should have used it as an example more, to be honest, especially in places with strong tribal identities. But it's an inefficient model that makes for tough sledding when you're trying to negotiate contracts for natural resources, which is probably the biggest reason why the USA doesn't use it as a baseline in other countries.

[Futureshock]

For sure, it's been absolutely clear from their responses they don't want to know how it actually works.

FIFY

[klondike]

Cept. It takes trillions of America money to get anything done. While the same things in Europe for instance take millions.. and done better. The bureaucracy is ridiculous for both parties.

[froot loops]

I think trillions over millions is an big overstatement, but you are right that they are certain things that Europe has over the US with choke points. The biggest example is mass transit building.

[Marko69]

Does Gerry Mandering have any football knowledge? Maybe knee munchin' Dan could give him a call?

[Futureshock]

Yeah, while the need to build coalitions of multiple parties can lead to more moderation and cooperation, it also can give a seat at the table to some pretty extreme factions. You also can end up like Israel who’ve had multiple elections over the last couple of years and a lot instability at the top of government. That can be good or bad, but as you can seen with Netanyahu, it’s not suddenly going to stem corruption and power grabs.

I think a bigger issue with the parties is just the inability of the electorate to move on from the officials they know. The fact that our country is run by a bunch of 70+ individuals is sad.

Oh, but it will always get back to the Orange Cult... He's so inciteful...

George Conway reacts to Trump's comments saying there will be 'big problems' if he's indicted | Watch (msn.com)

CNNyesterday at 9:41 PM
George Conway reacts to Trump's comments saying there will be 'big problems' if he's indicted

[chemiclord]

Oh come on! Don't you remember when Hillary Clinton implied there'd be Civil War if she was ever indicted?

[Futureshock]

Traitors

[Da Geezer]

Nothing like using blatant lies to try to prove a point.

Have you considered that if you can't make a case for you bullshit beliefs without resorting to lies that maybe you beliefs need to be reevaluated?

What an eloquent argument.

Could you point out my "blatant lies"? I'm just trying to learn here.

[Da Geezer]

Yeah, getting rid of gerrymandering and dark money contributions would be great steps that shouldn't be controversial to the general population but will never happen.

How would you do the 435 districts for the House? Computer? Then who writes the algorithms? You would have just as much bitching with computer models as with human-drawn maps. The key is having rules established ahead of doing re-districting and following the rules.

[Da Geezer]

Cept. It takes trillions of America money to get anything done. While the same things in Europe for instance take millions.. and done better. The bureaucracy is ridiculous for both parties.

That is absurd.

Since 1945, the American defense umbrella has protected Europe from invasion. We paid virtually the whole expense, in addition to rebuilding Germany.

The US spent 13% of the federal budget on defense last year, over 50% of total discretionary spending. Trump was excoriated (I'm sure on this forum) for demanding that NATO countries meet their 2% treaty obligation for defense. The MSM said that Trump was trying to destroy the NATO alliance.

Laughingly, what finally broke Britain's back and made the Brits exit the European Union was that Brussels was telling them the size of pot they could use to boil water. I'll bet everyone here thought Britain should Remain.

There is a 2-year wait for a knee replacement through the National Health Service in Britain, and that is better than in the rest of the EU. But things like that cannot be quantified, so the ignorant obsess about how well the bureaucracy works.

You are right about the bureaucracy being ridiculous on both sides of the Atlantic. Then why do you align yourself with the party that represents massive bureaucracy in the US?

[Da Geezer]

Yeah? Again, I don't see what is so hard to grasp here.

Hey, I get it. I see idiots and assholes abound, people with barely formed opinions stumbling blindly through a ballot, and I sometimes think, "God, think how much better it would be if we had a way to filter out the dumbasses."

But every way that I entertained turned out to be something that could (fairly easily) be exploited by people to twist it to their own ends, subverting the "perception of fairness" you've been going on about. I guess as long as it feels fair to you, it really doesn't matter if it is or not, huh?

Because contrary to your assertions, voting is a right, not a "privilege." The Fifteenth Amendment of the Constitution you claim to love so much actually outright says so.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxv

[B]

At the end of the day, the best solution is the one that has as few restrictions and hurdles to jump over as possible. If you want ID restrictions to prove citizenship, that in and of itself is fine... but you better make such IDs easy to acquire for everyone. If not, you're just gaming the system, no matter how much you try to handwave it away as reasonable.

I concede your point that voting is a right. Do you take your kids into the voting booth with you? That is the kind of privilege I was talking about.

I doubt there is any ID usage that you would find acceptable. Do you agree with Photo IDs? Photo IDs are available everywhere for free. They are a necessity for everyday life in the US. But Progs generally view them as "suppression". Why is that? It is because there are some people who are either too lazy or too stupid to go get an ID. Dems view these folks as part of their base, along with criminals, drug addicts, LGBTQ2S+, the homeless, government workers, and the rich elites.

At least you understand what Trump has done with his unwillingness to accept the election results in 2020. It has to do with the perception of fairness in elections and the relationship of that perception to the peaceful transfer of power. Most historians now accept the fact that the Chicago machine delivered illegal votes (I presume you think people should be alive in order to vote) to make JFK President. Nixon refused to push the matter because of what it might do to the unity of the country. "We could use a man like Richard Nixon again."

[chemiclord]

I concede your point that voting is a right. Do you take your kids into the voting booth with you? That is the kind of privilege I was talking about.

I doubt there is any ID usage that you would find acceptable. Do you agree with Photo IDs? Photo IDs are available everywhere for free. They are a necessity for everyday life in the US. But Progs generally view them as "suppression". Why is that? It is because there are some people who are either too lazy or too stupid to go get an ID. Dems view these folks as part of their base, along with criminals, drug addicts, LGBTQ2S+, the homeless, government workers, and the rich elites.

At least you understand what Trump has done with his unwillingness to accept the election results in 2020. It has to do with the perception of fairness in elections and the relationship of that perception to the peaceful transfer of power. Most historians now accept the fact that the Chicago machine delivered illegal votes (I presume you think people should be alive in order to vote) to make JFK President. Nixon refused to push the matter because of what it might do to the unity of the country. "We could use a man like Richard Nixon again."

It's not "suppression" in and of itself. When combined with closing inner city SoS offices, or restricting their hours, or moving them out into the suburbs where mass transit either doesn't exist or is not reliable, that becomes "suppression" and gaming the system. Can it still be done? Sure. But in many places, getting ID has become such an unnecessary chore, and I'd argue that is by design; restricting who can vote without actually outright saying so.

It has largely the same effect as outright voting suppression; though a little bit cruder and not as precise as outright denying specific groups.

And by "most historians accept the Chicago machine delivered illegal votes," you mean "practically none of them and most agree it was insignificant at best if not a total fabrication" then yeah, you're right. Otherwise, you're talking out of your ass... again.

We are not the slightest bit obligated to cater to your bullshit "perception," especially when it's not grounded in reality. If I decided we needed to change our laws governing farmland because I demanded we protect the unicorns and dragons in the sky, it doesn't matter one bit if I think they're real. They're not, and the rest of society would be justified in ignoring my concerns.

Stop making up your own reality because you don't like the one in front of you, old man.

[CGVT]

LOL! Geezer comes into this forum, spouts his stupid assed shit, gets his ass kicked and goes back to the M forum with his tail tucked between his legs and complains about how liberal this side of the forum is.

Jesus.

Take your "Only net taxpayers should be able to vote" racist ass back to your safe place.

[klondike]

80 million people supposedly voted for yer hero. More than any other prez. Also, he lost the first time around. Are you saying Biden is more popular than Obama or could there have been shenanigans