DetroitLionsForum.com
Please support the forum by using this link to shop with our sponsor:

Go Back   DetroitLionsForum.com > Sports Discussion Forums > University of Michigan

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 3rd, 2018, 11:53 AM   #21
iam416
Senior Member
 
iam416's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,848
Quote:
Exactly what were the "unreasonable" expectations for Harbaugh? That he would beat Ohio State and win the B1G East at least once? I don't recall anyone here predicting that Harbaugh would go 33-3 and win three B1G titles to start his tenure at Michigan. If you say that Michigan can't be Nick Saban's Alabama, then you're knocking down strawmen.
I'm the one who said it, and I was referring to the belief that JH would be, in fact, Saban or Meyer. Attributing expectations to any large group of people is imprecise, obviously. I think the foregoing view was a definite plurality view and possible slight majority view.

The second point is whether that view is unrealistic.

This is what I said and JB was referring to:

Quote:
All that said, there's almost no way M fans wouldn't overestimate JH. There just isn't. Given his background, his attachment to the University and the particular moment in time when he arrived -- there was just no way expectations wouldn't be fantabulously high.
__________________
Dan Patrick: What was your reaction to [Urban Meyer being hired]?
Brady Hoke: You know.....not....good.
iam416 is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:14 PM   #22
Hannibal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,419
When we hired Harbaugh, there was every indication in the world that he was in the elite 1% of coaches. He was the QB coach for the Raiders the last time that they made a Super Bowl. He finished his career at San Diego with back-to-back conference championships and a 22-2 record. He turned a talentless Stanford program that was a smoking 1-11 crater into an 11-1 team in four years. Then he did something that is incredibly rare -- he went to the NFL and won big -- something that even Saban couldn't do and Pete Carroll couldn't do in his first job. What Harbaugh did at Stanford is more impressive than what Saban did at MSU. Off the top of my head I can't think of any head coach who had a better resume before taking his first major college job. No amount of data mining or ifs and butts can explain it away. And he was a perfect fit as an alumnus too. Expectations were reasonably very high. If you disagree, then fine, but it doesn't matter because the high end of the expectation range isn't relevant to the conversation. Michigan Harbaugh isn't even a better coach than Kirk Frerentz. He's barely better than Hoke (only two more wins through three years and Hoke inherited overall shittier talent).

Last edited by Hannibal; January 3rd, 2018 at 12:19 PM.
Hannibal is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:22 PM   #23
froot loops
Senior Member
 
froot loops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'm great
Posts: 32,127
The overestimation has been fueled by Jim Harbaugh himself. Whether it is the summer swarm, twitter wars or the Bo Schembechler cosplay it has fueled the expectations. On top of that, the Michigan fan base always has high expectations.

Almost every year you carry all the burdens of high expectations with very little of the benefits. If you look back at what people thought two years ago, the crest was going to be 2016 with a 2017 being a step back year. Somewhere along the line the expectations rose for 2017. 8-5 sucks and they are clear coaching issues, but you have a blank slate for 2018 and having a little underdog mentality wouldn't hurt.
froot loops is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:26 PM   #24
Rocky Bleier
Senior Member
 
Rocky Bleier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwest, WI
Posts: 9,195
As far as Harbaugh's demeanor, it seemed to me that he knew the team had probably won its last game after beating Maryland. Speight wasn't coming back, O'Korn wasn't going to improve, and Peters was too green. The offensive line was what it was, too. I thought he went through the motions. His press conferences were dull. He was careful not to blame players. At one point earlier in the season he said that he'd "been through this before" with a young team. He knew he had to make changes to his staff, but would have to wait until the season ended. I think he was pretty anxious for the season to end, because he knew it wasn't going to get any better. Now it's on him.
__________________
I'll let you ban hate speech when you let me define hate speech.
Rocky Bleier is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:29 PM   #25
Hannibal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,419
This year's 8-5 was worse than Brady Hoke's 2012 8-5. The 2012 team got assraped by Alabama but then again, so did everyone else. They lost four games to teams with a combined record of 48-3. That team was better than its record. This one was worse. In terms of overall quality, not much better than RichRod's last two teams

Last edited by Hannibal; January 3rd, 2018 at 12:58 PM.
Hannibal is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:57 PM   #26
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 12,385
Raced out to a 14-0 lead on OSU, and I thought that was an excellent job by the coaches of putting an overmatched team and QB in a position to have a puncher's chance.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:58 PM   #27
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 12,385
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
When we hired Harbaugh, there was every indication in the world that he was in the elite 1% of coaches. He was the QB coach for the Raiders the last time that they made a Super Bowl. He finished his career at San Diego with back-to-back conference championships and a 22-2 record. He turned a talentless Stanford program that was a smoking 1-11 crater into an 11-1 team in four years. Then he did something that is incredibly rare -- he went to the NFL and won big -- something that even Saban couldn't do and Pete Carroll couldn't do in his first job. What Harbaugh did at Stanford is more impressive than what Saban did at MSU. Off the top of my head I can't think of any head coach who had a better resume before taking his first major college job. No amount of data mining or ifs and butts can explain it away. And he was a perfect fit as an alumnus too. Expectations were reasonably very high.
Very well said.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 01:16 PM   #28
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,417
Expectations for HARBAUGH!! are one thing ...... they were high and justifiably so. No getting around that.

I think what you are saying, Hanni, is that performance did not meet expectations. I'd just add, it is what it is.

Having said that, it seems to me that if the rumors about changes in the offensive staff that JH appears to be working on do occur and that those changes bring about offensive improvement, my expectations that he do what is necessary to lead M football to championships are being met. In today's world of CFB and among the blue-bloods where success has to come right away, it seems hard to justify Harbaugh's failure to do that. So, I get the frustration among fans. My response is it's going to take a little longer it would seem.

Should he have made changes earlier as I mentioned in a previous post? Probably but he didn't. Slow to react? I think so, but it appears he knows what the problems are and is working to rectify them. After B2B losses to osu, he brought in Don Brown reportedly for the sole purpose of containing ufm's offense at osu. Brown has done a bang-up job; he's delivered. The problem has been on offense.

In comparison to Brady Hoke after his second year and Rich Rodriguez after his third, I don't think Hoke had a clue and Rodriguez was saddled by his undying loyalty to his inner circle of people who just plain fucked him and M football in the process. That RR never realized this and has now been fired from Zona for being stupid, it appears, makes Jim Harbaugh's rumored moves look pretty insightful compared to Hoke and RR.

I'm skeptical about the potential for success at the college level of guys from the NFL for the reasons I mentioned in another post. 8-5 in 2017 may be, and I emphasize that .... may be cauze we don't really know, proof that bringing in Drevno and Fisch when he showed up on campus then Hamilton after Fisch left were bad hiring decisions.

Roman could also be a bad hire for the same reason. Maybe not and here's why ......

I read a post a while ago from a SF fan that said Roman and Harbaugh, when they were together in the B2B seasons where the 49'ers went to the NFC championship game twice and once to the SB, worked really well together and produced some great offenses that were molded around Kapernick's skill set. His background at the college level came during his time at Division 1 FBS Nevada that ran a pure WCO out of the pistol formation. He had great success there and set all kinds of passing and rushing records for a QB .... take a look at his wiki profile.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Kaepernick

Harbaugh picked Kaepernick 4th in the second round of the NFL draft (#36 overall). His first year in 2011 at SF under Roman and Harbaugh wasn't particularly noteworthy but what was noteworthy is that he became a reliable Wildcat QB in Harbaugh's offense in his second year, 2012, with SF. After an injury to Alex Smith, Kaepernick replaced him full time and led SF to two great seasons in 2012 and 2013 with Greg Roman as OC.

Man, there are a ton of similarities to JH's run with Kap in 2012-13 to what has been going on in the last month. Patterson is a hell-of-a-lot like Kaepernick in his size and skill set. If Peters does pan out and shows up as the starter, does JH see Patterson, at a minimum, as a wildcat QB who might ultimately replace Peters if he stumbles? Did he tell him that during his recruiting?

As opposed to Kaepernick, that set FBS records, Patterson has potential that I'm pretty sure JH sees. Both of them come from WCO offenses run from the Pistol. Is he trying to bring in Roman to replicate that very successful SF offense with Kaepernick first running wildcat plays and then at starting QB? Who knows but this all sounds remarkably reasonable.

Stay tuned.
__________________
On Harbaugh's expectations for M football in 2015 (NFL NETWORK): “We'd rather be about it than talk about it."
Jeff Buchanan is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 01:33 PM   #29
froot loops
Senior Member
 
froot loops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'm great
Posts: 32,127
Harbaugh struck gold with Kaepernick but it must be noted that if you ran the read option in the NFL back then it was kryptonite to NFL defensive coordinators, the NFL was not prepared. They really didn't run it that much and then used it a ton on the Packers in the playoffs. Nowadays it is really common in both college and pros and you won't have the surprise aspect to help you.
froot loops is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 01:55 PM   #30
Rocky Bleier
Senior Member
 
Rocky Bleier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwest, WI
Posts: 9,195
True. I happily recall watching the collective heads of my neighbors and workmates here in The Land of Cheese explode when Mr. Black Panther Wannabe was crushing their souls during the playoffs.
__________________
I'll let you ban hate speech when you let me define hate speech.
Rocky Bleier is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 02:22 PM   #31
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,417
Quote:
Originally Posted by froot loops View Post
Harbaugh struck gold with Kaepernick but it must be noted that if you ran the read option in the NFL back then it was kryptonite to NFL defensive coordinators, the NFL was not prepared. They really didn't run it that much and then used it a ton on the Packers in the playoffs. Nowadays it is really common in both college and pros and you won't have the surprise aspect to help you.
Very true.

Here's the thing. At the college level, there's no denying using the QB position as another set of legs and as a run threat, makes defending all 11 guys a lot harder than just 10 with a statuesque pro-style QB back there. At least per talent .... heh.

I don't think it's JH's attempt to bring some new offensive wrinkle to the table but rather give M's offense more variability that opposing DCs have to think about.
__________________
On Harbaugh's expectations for M football in 2015 (NFL NETWORK): “We'd rather be about it than talk about it."
Jeff Buchanan is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 02:39 PM   #32
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,417
This just posted up at Touch the Banner. The guy that owns this blog posts as umbig.11 at mgoboards. He's the guy that I mentioned earlier today that seems to have some kind of inside connection though he never discusses it, suggests he has it or says anything that might reveal he actually has a friend inside Schembechler Hall that hears stuff.

It's a seemingly realistic rundown of what he thinks the 2018 coaching staff will look like. Standard disclaimer ..... he denies any insider info on assistant coaching searches.

http://touch-the-banner.com/rumors-staff-changes/
__________________
On Harbaugh's expectations for M football in 2015 (NFL NETWORK): “We'd rather be about it than talk about it."
Jeff Buchanan is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 02:41 PM   #33
WingsFan
Senior Member
 
WingsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor MI
Posts: 8,490
Quote:
fuck any analysis of 2107. It doesn't matter anymore

lmao You said it Stan, im tapping out. I might be back next year (?) but doubt it. Michigan has finally turned into the Detroit Lions
WingsFan is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 02:46 PM   #34
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 12,385
If things don't finally make sense, then, yes. From late Lloyd to RR to Hoke to now, the only constant is the losing. There's been huge diversity in how they've done it though, which is alarming and Lionsish.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 03:08 PM   #35
Rocky Bleier
Senior Member
 
Rocky Bleier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwest, WI
Posts: 9,195
Unless he's changed his name, the Touch the Banner guy posts as Thunder at MGoBlog. I believe he coaches at the high school level.
__________________
I'll let you ban hate speech when you let me define hate speech.
Rocky Bleier is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 03:49 PM   #36
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,417
I don't think so, Rocky. Thunder is another guy who IS a HS coach, makes excellent, analytic posts at mgoboard and posted a comment under the article I linked to. Two different guys, I think.
__________________
On Harbaugh's expectations for M football in 2015 (NFL NETWORK): “We'd rather be about it than talk about it."
Jeff Buchanan is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 03:57 PM   #37
Rocky Bleier
Senior Member
 
Rocky Bleier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwest, WI
Posts: 9,195
Thunder = Magnus = Touch the Banner. Look at this page.

http://touch-the-banner.com/author/magnus/


It says posts by Thunder. Look in the url. It says author/magnus.

I've been stealing pictures from him for a long time. I also read his posts at MGO where he refers to stuff he just put up at TTB.
__________________
I'll let you ban hate speech when you let me define hate speech.
Rocky Bleier is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 05:09 PM   #38
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,417
Hmmmm ..... guess you're right. I know that posters frequently use different pseudonyms. I must have confused umbig.11 with him. Now I wonder who umbig.11 is.

Anyway, Good catch. Thanks for that.
__________________
On Harbaugh's expectations for M football in 2015 (NFL NETWORK): “We'd rather be about it than talk about it."
Jeff Buchanan is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 06:08 PM   #39
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,417
The Greg Roman to M thing is probably premature. It's got a shit-ton of run on multiple message boards but no site with cred is suggesting this thing is going to happen. With that in mind, this is a good post about Greg Roam at SF. The comments section is equally eyeopening even though most of the posts are just fans posting stuff. Some of the stuff is very good though.

Cliff Notes:

Roman was part of a triumvirate of offensive coordinators at every place he worked with JH including SF. The multiple coordinator thing is Harbaugh's MO. In fact, it seems this is a thing all around the NFL and is finding it's way into CFB. The reason is the complexity of play calling inside and outside the redzone is different as defenses become more complex.

At the very least, you'll see passing game and running game coordinators in most offensive coaching staffs either in name and on the practice field or actually making the play calls in-game.

Roman has a really good track record when working with Harbaugh but it's relative. His greatest success was with JH in SF. The post I've linked to states Roman was considered "the guy" at SF so, he took the heat when fans complained about his plodding, old school offense - it was something like #8 in the NFL in 2013 and in the bottom quarter in 2014. When SF played Seattle and Russell Wilson, fans would bitch, "why can't SF run an offense like that."

Roman did use Kap in a pistol O and SF fans loved it but it was hit and miss. SF fans didn't like the changing back and forth between manball and WCO out of the pistol.

Roman was famous for building a lead and going conservative. SF fans hated it.

He's a very Debordian hire it seems.

Roman went to the Bills as OC when JH left SF to come to M and made a bundle in that deal. He was fired after a loss to the Jets in 2015 and most think he got a bum rap. He actually had pretty good numbers there.

He's now with the Ravens as TEs coach.

Here's some of my thoughts:

We better get used to the OC by committee thing. It's the way Harbaugh does it every where he's been after SDS and most NFL coaches do things. Does it make it too complicated for CFB players? I think it does. JH would obviously disagree with me and all those in my camp.

Roman is closely aligned with JH and manball. If you read the post I've linked to, you'll see Harbaugh's footprint all over whatever he and Roman ran at all their stints together. Seems to me that it's Harbaugh doing the things that frustrate us fans the most.

Frankly, I don't care what he does as long as it brings championships. The more I read stuff about the coaching changes though, I'm dubious about him being able to do that based on what I've seen the last three seasons. We could see a revised and invigorated M offense offense or nothing of the sort and just a repeat of the way its been. I'm stifling my enthusiasm of earlier today.

With the rumors of a house cleaning on the offensive coaching side of the ball, it's clear to me that Harbaugh is going to hire someone who he's comfortable with. he's not going to out and bring in some new guy who's done well at some FBS team. That sounds appealing to some. It's not going to happen.

http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/49ers-fans-view-greg-roman
__________________
On Harbaugh's expectations for M football in 2015 (NFL NETWORK): “We'd rather be about it than talk about it."
Jeff Buchanan is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old January 3rd, 2018, 06:12 PM   #40
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 12,385
Interesting about the multiple playcallers thing. If that's the trend then that's the trend.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owners. The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © DetroitLionsForum.com.
This site is a non-profit fan site and IS NOT affiliated with the NFL or Detroit Lions or any other sports team. Please visit the official site of the Detroit Lions for official information on the Lions.