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Old November 19th, 2017, 12:49 PM   #1
*JD*
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Thumbs down THE GAME 17-MICHIGAN vs osu:Last Call for Saving the Season or Another Round of Pain?

I've no clue who our QB is but...GO BLUE!
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Old November 19th, 2017, 01:00 PM   #2
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With O'Korn likely starting, this will move M's record to 1-13 vs Ohio St since 2004?
Hard to call this game a rivalry for anyone that was born in the 90s or later. More like "predictable slaughter fest."

Whatever, 2018 should be a bounce back year.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 01:03 PM   #3
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OSU 38
UM 3

Won't be watching it anyways.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 01:49 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
OSU 38
UM 3

Won't be watching it anyways.
It's not going to be that bad but it is not likely to be good either.

For starters, I don't like any of the match-ups that involve M's offense. osu will play it's Ss up essentially negating any M running game. The injuries to Higdon and Isaac add more negatives to the run game.

JOK throwing, esp when he has time to reflect upon the almost certain fact that he is starting is going to expose the OL, again, causing him to break the pocket and improvise. That never goes well for him.

The defense will do fine but will tire mid-third quarter after all the predicable three and outs. I worry that they will go in knowing this and it very well might happen a lot earlier than that.

STs also fine but either osu or M is going to get a big play and who that team is just isn't' predictable. Same for turnovers. Once again, M is going to have to be +2 at a minimum and even then, jtb has shown he can overcome bad plays and dial up some kind of game winning mojo.

Someone wrote a decent comment elsewhere that this team lacks the confidence to truly overcome adversity. Players and coaches talk about it but results on the field belie that talk. Let me be perfectly clear, I'm not criticizing anyone.

I can say with some certainty that a loss of confidence in oneself and teammates after losing games like this team has lost in 2017 is a rather common and predictable outcome. This is especially true when 18-20yo's are involved. It takes a long time and a lot of mistakes made to learn how to persevere. It's been said that Bo's, Moeller's and the early Carr teams developed this important behavioral characteristic. This team and it's coaches aren't there yet but if they stick it out, they will be.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 01:55 PM   #5
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...... one more comment: say what you will about power football or man-ball at the CFB level. While I'm willing to concede that this is a much more difficult offensive scheme to run well than others that are available, it can be run. It takes a long time to recruit and develop players in a system that runs this offense to both provide excellent starters and depth sufficient to sustain the team in the event of injuries...... and never mind that the QB, and I don't care what system you're running, is a game changer with respect to success or failure.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 01:57 PM   #6
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There's something to that, Buchanan. I certainly don't think M will quit, but if OSU can get a quick score or two against M, then it could be really bad. Conversely, if they get into the game then it'll go a lot like Saturday with M having every opportunity to win.

I'm still remarkably uncomfortable with OSU's offense. So, I tend more toward a grinding game.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 02:06 PM   #7
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URBAN!!! 27 HARBAUGH!!! 9
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Old November 19th, 2017, 02:10 PM   #8
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I think M showing up at Camp Randall and first on offense and having Peters throw the ball around, make a couple of plays and then get in a rhythm took Cryst by surprise. It was effective.

There is no reason for ufm to play it safe with M on osu's first possession. The reason for that is Harbaugh won't be doing that even with O'Korn. M has nothing to lose, osu clearly does. Being timid will play right into M's hands.

I seriously doubt that even if M somehow gets out in front, osu just has too many tools in the garage to bounce back. M has a couple of broken down, poorly running '60s Edsels one of which has a flat tire.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 04:04 PM   #9
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No Paul Chryst friendship take-the-foot-off-the-pedal mercy in this one. Urban will be smirking and dancing in Ann Arbor once again. He may even pull out his my-wife-called-for-milk joke again. Another group of seniors go out in humiliating defeat to what used to be their biggest rival. Michigan currently has no rival. There are teams they beat consistently - Minnesota, Rutgers, Indiana, etc., and there are teams that beat them consistently - MSU, OSU, Wisconsin, etc.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 04:49 PM   #10
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Appy State too
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Old November 19th, 2017, 06:58 PM   #11
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To quote Clubber Lang: “My prediction? Pain.”
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Old November 19th, 2017, 07:37 PM   #12
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My prediction:

STFU
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Old November 19th, 2017, 09:57 PM   #13
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I like the comments so far here but what will happen is unadvoidable. The team will be mentally beat before the game starts. Its unfortunate in such a rival game as this but I'm sure their mentallity is to somehow keep the game respectable for as long as they can.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 10:08 PM   #14
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This is a game I wish UM had some very mobile qb as a secret weapon they could use and change the whole insipid offense we've seen all year. Come out with just the possibility of some misdirection plays and option plays they could add to their stiflingly boring play book

I'm sure they plays they set up look real good in meetings and on chalk boards but will not work in real life without an elite qb and or great OL.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 08:09 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klondike View Post
This is a game I wish UM had some very mobile qb as a secret weapon they could use and change the whole insipid offense we've seen all year. Come out with just the possibility of some misdirection plays and option plays they could add to their stiflingly boring play book

I'm sure they plays they set up look real good in meetings and on chalk boards but will not work in real life without an elite qb and or great OL.
Well, can't change the offensive system the team has been playing for three years in a week. I don't agree with the "insipid" characterization either.

Even in the long term, JH knows power offenses and fundamentally that's what he's going to run. He's recruited some quality pro-style QBs and that insures the offense is going to look pretty much like it looks now for the next 6y, probably more.

My view is that there is nothing wrong conceptually with Harbaughffense but it's not going to work well with QBs that aren't proficient at running it or offensive linemen who can't consistently execute it well. It's pretty simple really.

No question at the college level there are other options for offenses and if the pro-style/power offense was the best one, most teams would be running it. They're not. The most likely reason is that spready offenses fit better with what kids play in HS, lend themselves better to the time allowed to develop player proficiency in them and are more plug and play than pro-style/power offenses are.

I've made this point elsewhere but it appears to me that it takes a long pipeline and time to develop player proficiency and team depth. Building that, however, is essential to fuel an efficient pro-style offense.

Clearly fans lack the patience to build it and there is more complaints about making excuses by those that aren't patient directed at those that are willing to be.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 08:57 AM   #16
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HARBAUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old November 20th, 2017, 01:17 PM   #17
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http://www.freep.com/story/sports/co...ugh/879811001/

Not helpful at all -- Peters is in concussion protocol, but the story suggests he could be back at practice by Wednesday. I think it's written just as a hypothetical?

Speight wasn't cleared for contact last week, don't know about this week.

If it's O'Korn I'm shutting the TV off and going outside.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 02:16 PM   #18
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Well, I've got tickets (now probably worth less than face) so, I'll be there in fcst shitty wx. I've left one game early and that was RR's last season during which the team traveled to HV. M's D got pounded. This was the disaster O of Al Borges run by DG. I couldn't bear watching. Awful. I'm worried this game is going to feel similar.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 06:00 PM   #19
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In case you haven't been perusing M news today here's a recap:

From JH's noon presser: Lavert Hill has cleared the concussion protocol and will have full contact practice this week and return to his CB position for the osu game. Brandon Peters seems fine and is in the concussion protocol. He'll be reevaluated on Wednesday (I'd say he's 50/50 and based on how Hill was handled, he won't play) . Nothing was said about Higdon, Onwenu or Isaac. (based on what was said last week and what we saw in the Wisconsin game, Onwenu will play, Higdon will make a go but he's clearly not 100%, Isaac won't play). Harbaugh would not comment on Speight.
I think he's 60/40 and may be a better bet to play than Peters but not JOK,
JMO


I'm copying and pasting this from Brian's post game piece he does every Monday:

Michigan's pass protection has often been absurd this year, what with gentlemen going entirely unblocked on any sort of stunt, or not-stunt. This reached its apex on third and six in the first half when Garrett Dooley, an outside linebacker who entered the game with a team-leading 6.5 sacks, lined up clearly intending to rush and ran directly at Brandon Peters for a thunder-sack. Juwann Bushell-Beatty was the nearest OL; he was blocking another dude. Cesar Ruiz, a gap further inside, also had a rusher. Chris Evans went in a route immediately. Patrick Kugler ended up blocking nobody.

There were two other instances of horrendous pass protection that saw Michigan fail to handle a stunt. On one Karan Higdon chopped a guy ably; Kugler left his man to also block that guy. That resulted in a chop-block call. Meanwhile, Kugler's guy ran up the middle and sacked Peters. The Peters injury was another stunt on which Kugler was the most obvious culprit.

Kugler might be a major issue. That's certainly the nicest way to interpret Michigan's pass protection issues since he's gone next year, and anything that's the nicest way to think about a problem should be interrogated thoroughly. But I don't remember things like this happening last year, when Mason Cole was at center. Kugler hasn't been physically overmatched—he generally grades out okay to well in UFR—so the most obvious reason he hasn't been able to get on the field until year five is an inability hack it mentally. I wonder if Michigan would stick with Cole at center and whatever may come at tackle if they had a do-over.

Probably not if the second best tackle on the roster is then Nolan Ulizio.


I think Brian has got the right take and provides what the underlying causes might be. I'm glad he is saying it and not me. I hate pointing fingers.


This is a really good piece from a poster on mgoboards (Ron Utah) who has cred among readers including me:

Lots of folks out there interpreted the "Persistent Underachievement" diaries as a call to fire and replace all or a portion of our offensive staff. That is not the case. You can criticize a person or group and still believe they are good at their jobs.

After watching this weekend's game live, I thought the playcalling was terrible. After a rewatch, I actually believe the playcalling was pretty good. But the scheme was not.

What I mean by that is that, given the set of plays we came prepared to run, I like that the play calling was more pass-oriented and aggressive. The deep shot to DPJ felt like a long-delayed relief, like that bathroom trip after too many hours in the car. McKeon dropped a big-gainer from JOK. Gentry had a long completion dislodged by a big hit. DPJ had a TD erroneously called back (though he could have done better with his feet there).

That said, I noticed some fundamental flaws with our scheme. Before I list them, please know that I understand and sympathize with the predicament we face--very young team with insanely young receiving options, young OL, freshman (or 3rd string) QB, etc. Even knowing these limitations, and perhaps even because of these limitations, I do not believe our scheme is giving us the best chance to win.
  • The early wrinkle was having McKeon on the outside. Presumably the coaches saw match-ups they liked with him against the UW CBs. It had some success, but it was clunky and did not help us score.
  • The reverse to DPJ was a great idea. Why not more of that? One jet sweep to McDoom was the only other play I noticed that really moved the ball aggressively horizontally.
  • Their CBs were frequently giving healthy cushions. Where are the WR screens?
  • The empty wildcat was silly.
  • UW's hyper-aggressive LBs (like ours) shoot gaps early in a play. They attack quickly and aggressively, often arriving in the gaps before the pulling players can get there. We did not run away from flow nearly often enough in this game, nor did we use horizontal attacking plays to force their LBs to think twice about blizting gaps.
  • UW's TD on the end around is a prime example of exactly what we need more of: a play that punishes the defense for using discipline and reading their keys. Both guards move towards the RB's lane while the center and weakside tackle move out into space to wall off the pursuit. It is a beautifully-designed play, and they have scored TDs off of it at least two weeks in a row.

In summary, there is not enough deception in our offense. Whether we are running or passing, we fail to use many of the staples of successful college offenses to confuse our opponents. Even 3-star athletes are fast enough and strong enough to disable an offense that's predictable. We don't use RPOs, QB option (we run these but the QB never keeps--a keeper was open for a big gain this week), and we rarely use jet motion, WR screens, throwback screens, or run away from the line action/pull.

I don't want to fire Harbaugh. To borrow from Craig Ross, I want Michigan to stop playing like Red Coats and start playing like Revolutionaries.

I agree with just about everything above. The poster provides context for all his critiques. Some other decent opinions that have been posted around the web involve the following: Think about Brian's pointed explanation about OL play and with this in the back-ground consider that given available practice time and the capacity of players to absorb what is likely a conceptually difficult offensive scheme we are seeing those limitations play out in what Ron Utah critiques.

This isn't an excuse, it's reality. Harbaugh is going to run a pro-style/power offense. Players in it will have to learn it's intricacies (as the apply to run and pass blocking) to make the O perform efficiently. If you are unwilling to wait for this to play out (irrespective of any offensive staff coaching changes that may or may not happen), I feel bad for you. The reason for that is that the only way this circumstance changes is if the Deciders believe M cannot move forward and compete for championships with the style of offense Harbaugh wants to and will play. Under this circumstance which has about a .0001% chance of happening, we're talking about another redo - the 4th in the last 11 years. IMO, this is no way to build a successful football program. The way you do that is to stick to a system the coaches are comfortable with, tweek it here and there (like Ron Utah suggests) and keep moving forward.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 06:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
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http://www.freep.com/story/sports/co...ugh/879811001/

Not helpful at all -- Peters is in concussion protocol, but the story suggests he could be back at practice by Wednesday. I think it's written just as a hypothetical?

Speight wasn't cleared for contact last week, don't know about this week.

If it's O'Korn I'm shutting the TV off and going outside.
It seems a little optimistic, he would have to be symptom free today.
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