DetroitLionsForum.com
Please support the forum by using this link to shop with our sponsor:

Go Back   DetroitLionsForum.com > Sports Discussion Forums > University of Michigan

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 19th, 2017, 11:48 AM   #261
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 12,395
That seems unnecessary. We put up with talent and all the many annoyances and aggravations because he's a sane non-M fan. Anyhow, well, yeah -- there's SOMETHING going on here. Too tied to Drevno? Maybe. Dunno. I'm certainly skeptical of the many cooks in the kitchen on offense. The defense has a college lifer for a coordinator and position coaches, and thinks work just as they should. Say what you will about the overaggressive scheme, and I think there are things to say, but the unit peforms at a high level and so far we've seen kids come in, get coached up, get on the field and play well. That's how it's supposed to be. There's none of that mighty struggle there is on offense to get four-star players to perform competently in all facets.

Froot nails it that the repeated frequency of unbocked rushers is a real situation.

Overall, Michigan competed well for most of that game, and if it goes slightly differently they come out with that first signature win of the Harbaugh era and all these legitimate problems are papered over and there's chest thumping instead of fears of eternal futility. I don't like that the defense seemed to just crumple with the Peters injury. Too easy to knock the wind out of their sails.

I don't know if Harbaugh has to fire any offensive assistants over the offseason. I think you want the NFL guys as position coaches, frankly, if you can get them. At the coordinator level, I wonder. The emergence of the running game suggests that they've got the right people in the right places. The failures in pass protection suggest otherwise.

All that said, I continue to wonder about in-game decisionmaking from Harbaugh himself. There could very well be an argument about him being too conservative with all those short fields in the third quarter. It could be that he struggles to strike the right balance. Reckless at times and dickless at times. That possibbly legitimate weakness will loom smaller when he has the players he needs. A shame it's taking too long, but he'll get them.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 19th, 2017, 11:50 AM   #262
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 12,395
I also don't like Harbaugh talking about the refs to the extent that he does. That's the job of people like me on message boards. He's supposed to make the usual noises about playing hard no matter what and all that, because that's what his players need to hear.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 19th, 2017, 12:17 PM   #263
Rocky Bleier
Senior Member
 
Rocky Bleier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Northwest, WI
Posts: 9,195
Inexperience was a factor yesterday. For example, the play where McDoom is supposed to do a double move, but the Wisconsin DB does not bite. McDoom is open at the 14 yd. line, and the DB is sitting at the 9. Peters doesn't attempt a throw to the sideline - the announcers claimed he pump faked - but instead McDoom turns for the end zone and has to break up the pass as it should have been intercepted. Both QB and WR should have recognized what was happening, but it appeared that they were both going to run the play regardless of how it was played by the DB. That's what I saw anyway. Am I wrong?
__________________
I'll let you ban hate speech when you let me define hate speech.
Rocky Bleier is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 19th, 2017, 12:42 PM   #264
Hannibal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,420
The coaching staff on offense is poor. Very very poor. Changing staff members likely won't make much of a difference. We're still stuck with Harbaugh and whomever he chooses, after he takes the team to visit the Great Wall of China or the Egyptian pyramids in the spring. Wait a minute -- he should take them to MacMurdo station in Antarctica instead. I'll bet that nobody has ever done that! Imagine the activity on Twitter that we'll see! Whatever the choice of spring destination, we will keep our winning streak alive of having a team that is more culturally enriched than that of our rivals. While Harbaugh was off making rap videos, planning his next podcast, and visiting the pope, the rest of the conference was hard at work developing their team. Literallly the only thing that separates Harbaugh from Hoke right now is the presence of Don Brown. Harbaugh inherited far more talent than Hoke (except for Denard) and he only has two more wins than Hoke at this stage (28-9 vs. 26-11). After the loss against ND next year concludes a four game losing streak, Harbaugh's record through 40 games will be 28-12 (vs. Hoke's 40 game record of 27-13). Dave Brandon was right -- all that glitters is not gold.

Bottom line -- I don't give a shit about what happens this weekend, in our bowl game, or in the off season with the staff. Fire, keep, rearrange -- don't care one shred. We now have a wealth of evidence that Harbaugh's judgement stinks. The Pepcat was a catastrophe. His scheme has been complete garbage since day 1. He chose to not have a wide receivers coach to coach the most talented receiver haul in the program's history. He put his nephew in charge of the running backs. He mixed Frey, Drevno, and Hamilton together in some kind of fucked up arrangement that nobody else in the country usees. He thought that Nolan Ulizio was worthy of a Michigan scholarship, but Erik Swenson wasn't. He thought that John O'Korn was a better QB than Brandon Peters. The list goes on and on. It's obvious at this point that Andrew Luck was the Harbaugh version of Nate Davis or Cam Newton.

Having Harbaugh at UM is an ideal outcome... for MSU and OSU. They will beat us every year but Harbaugh will never get fired. It's like when Cooper was OSU's coach. I do expect Harbaugh to return to the NFL someday though. When all of the fawning and the admiration stops (it's going to be a couple more years but I think that people are starting to wake up a little bit), he will go somewhere else for a fancy private bathroom and a huge ego stroke. I could give less of a shit at this point. I could give a shit less who we hire. The program is a shit program now regardless of who is in charge and it's always going to be a shit program. The stands will start emptying again like they did at the end of the Hoke era, and this time, the fans won't be coming back. They are probably all on stubhub now trying to unload their tickets. Who can blame them? Who wants to see yet another faceplant? I expect the red/blue mixture this weekend to look a lot like the 2009 game. Unless OSU fans don't want to travel to see another win over a cupcake that they easily beat every year. It's like traveling to Purdue or Maryland. What's the fucking point? It's the Brown Jug game for them. In 50 years, historians will once talk about how it was once a great rivalry and people will laugh.

Last edited by Hannibal; November 19th, 2017 at 01:00 PM.
Hannibal is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 19th, 2017, 12:48 PM   #265
whodean
Senior Member
 
whodean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ATL
Posts: 5,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannibal View Post
Dave Brandon was right
Stopped reading.
__________________
Atlanta, GA
whodean is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 19th, 2017, 01:24 PM   #266
Tom W
Senior Member
 
Tom W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Livonia, MI
Posts: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by hack View Post
That seems unnecessary. We put up with talent and all the many annoyances and aggravations because he's a sane non-M fan..
Sorry, but that’s REALLY funny- like saying that Paris is really an amazing city to visit- in 1942.
Tom W is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 19th, 2017, 02:09 PM   #267
whodean
Senior Member
 
whodean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: ATL
Posts: 5,293
He's a closet M fan anyway.
__________________
Atlanta, GA
whodean is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 20th, 2017, 08:43 AM   #268
UMStan White
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,832
"Am I wrong?"

Always!
UMStan White is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 20th, 2017, 08:57 AM   #269
THE_WIZARD_
Senior Member
 
THE_WIZARD_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 5,148
HARBAUGH!!!!!!!
__________________
Shut the fuck up Donny!
THE_WIZARD_ is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 23rd, 2017, 08:14 PM   #270
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,422
These are the two sacks that knocked Peters out of the game. I've pulled them out of Brian's UFR at mgoblog because I think they are both instructive on two counts. First, Brian minces no words in assigning causation to specific players and (2) Brian does not try to extend causation to the coaches.

First thundersack. Evans immediately goes in a route here. Line sets to left like it’s a slide protection. OLB sacks Peters. Could be Evans, could be a bad line call because Evans is leaving the backfield. Could be both JBB and Ruiz screwing up in the same way at the same time. But probably not. (PR, 0, protection 0/3, TEAM -3)


UW tries the LB on RB as outside WR thing and M goes after it. Connelly does an okay job despite turning his hips inside on a threatened slant. Evans is running at the numbers and has plenty of room to the sideline to make a play but not much separation. Evans misses. Peters is also annihilated as he throws, as Kugler(-1) and Bredeson(-1) collectively fail to pick up a stunt. Ruiz(-1) also should have looked for work once his guy went outside to JBB. (IN, 0, protection 0/3)


Why then are these really stupid things happening in pass-pro game in and game out? Well, Brian does a thing at the end of the UFR section where he re-reviews plays that make points that he wishes to make.

(1) C, Patrick Kugler, appears to be blowing line calls and this has been a constant refrain of Brian's since right about after the 4th or 5th game.

(2) Why haven't the coaches done something about this? Well, Kugler is a 5th year senior and this is his first year starting. Does that tell us something? Yes. I'm pretty sure the coaches have worked hard with him. It's just not happening.

Brian goes on to fault the coaching staff for being overly conservative about who plays. It's entirely possible that Cesar Ruiz could have done a better job than Kugler at C but because he was a true Freshman, they might not have trusted him. I'm sympathetic to the LT issue as a complicating factor for the coaches. Who was going to play there in 2017 other than Cole. That rather forces Kugler to C and a patch work solution for the right side of the OL.

(3) The OL continues to fail to pick-up stunts and the 2nd thundersack that knocked Peters out of the game is an example of that. Kugler is again involved but not because of a bad line call. He and Bredeson just plain didn't see it and should have. Ruiz didn't either. I find it hard to believe, given the number of stunts that have resulted in free rushers, that the OL hasn't reviewed tape after these events and talked about overcoming them. I suppose they're not getting reviewed but no, that is just not rational. The more rational thought is that certain players are at or near their ceilings of performance.

I think one of things Brian fails to illuminate in trying to understand causation regarding OL play is the things Ron Utah (an mogoboard poster) brought up about scheme. Brian insists, and he uses several plays to make his point, that too many OL errors are on Kugler and his bad line calls. He makes some good points in support of this causation factor but does not get into what Ron Utah describes as a scheme that is too predictable. There's a lot more but you can read his post here (I linked in once before, you may have missed it - good read) http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/play-calling-vs-scheme

The scheme stuff is all coaching and it is one place where, if this is an accurate description of a failing offense, that Harbaugh is totally responsible for.
__________________
On Harbaugh's expectations for M football in 2015 (NFL NETWORK): “We'd rather be about it than talk about it."
Jeff Buchanan is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 23rd, 2017, 09:39 PM   #271
froot loops
Senior Member
 
froot loops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: I'm great
Posts: 32,137
That thundersack is not on Kugler at all. It's either the tackle or Evans. One thing about line calls is the center makes the initial call but the guard and tackle always need to communicate with each other The back is always responsible for protecting the QB before he goes out on a route. If it isn't Evans, than the scheme is stupid. You don't leave a patchwork exposed like that.

Last edited by froot loops; November 23rd, 2017 at 09:41 PM.
froot loops is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 23rd, 2017, 10:09 PM   #272
CGVT
Senior Member
 
CGVT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Posts: 30,836
Who the fuck is Brian and why should I care?
__________________
Clouds are clouds. Cows are cows. The Lions are the Lions .-Andrew Heller-
CGVT is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 24th, 2017, 08:45 AM   #273
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,422
Brian is the owner of the mgoblog site. He does the article called Upon Further Review - Offense and Defense. In these recaps he goes through every play and recaps it. He's been doing this for about 5y now, maybe longer. He is highly regarded as an analyst. Here's a link, have a look.

http://mgoblog.com/content/upon-furt...e-vs-wisconsin
__________________
On Harbaugh's expectations for M football in 2015 (NFL NETWORK): “We'd rather be about it than talk about it."
Jeff Buchanan is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 24th, 2017, 08:57 AM   #274
Jeff Buchanan
Senior Member
 
Jeff Buchanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 6,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by froot loops View Post
That thundersack is not on Kugler at all. It's either the tackle or Evans. One thing about line calls is the center makes the initial call but the guard and tackle always need to communicate with each other The back is always responsible for protecting the QB before he goes out on a route. If it isn't Evans, than the scheme is stupid. You don't leave a patchwork exposed like that.
You'd have to talk to Brian about his analysis. I think (if it's the first sack you're talking about) he's referring to the possibility that Kugler missed the line call and he bases this on the observation that both Kugler and Ruiz are looking aroud for someone to block while the Wisconsin guy stunts into an uncovered gap and heads straight for Peters unmolested.

The thing about Evans is that there is no way he abandons a protection scheme unless the play is designed to do that or a line call is messed up. It's clear to me that the OL are confused about the blocking scheme and pass-pro on this play - as the commentator points out there are offensive linemen looking around for someone to block while Peters gets sacked. How the end result came about is debatable and speculative.

Brian has mentioned in the past the possibility that the line calls are not being done correctly. It's not like he just came up with this. Game to game, there is a pattern to what is happening on pass-pro plays and he finds the errors consistent enough to assign cause to Kugler and his line calls. It's one guys take. YMMV.

On scheme ..... I agree that there is something to this. Other observers have speculated about this as well on a play to play basis.
__________________
On Harbaugh's expectations for M football in 2015 (NFL NETWORK): “We'd rather be about it than talk about it."
Jeff Buchanan is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 24th, 2017, 11:04 AM   #275
Hannibal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,420
Brian started doing the UFRs back in 2005. He started it largely because, like many of us, he recognized how worthless most sports commentary and analyses in the traditional media were. So, he came up with a system for analyzing and evaluating each player, play by play. He also attended a lot of coaching clinics so that he could learn more about what happens on each play. It was groundbreaking and he deserves a lot of credit for it. Over the years, the UFRs have become increasingly complicated -- possibly to their detriment.
Hannibal is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 24th, 2017, 12:04 PM   #276
drok
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 619
Brian's been pretty transparent about what he's guessing at and what he feels confident about when evaluating the games through the UFR's. Other than talking shit about the fan base or refs, he's usually pretty conservative in his criticisms. This is especially true about where he places blame on a play and I think that plays into his slow pace of blaming coaches. His base point of view, even during the Hoke years, is to give the coaches the benefit of the doubt until it becomes to systemic to ignore.
drok is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 24th, 2017, 05:32 PM   #277
hack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 12,395
His base point of view, even during the Hoke years, is to give the coaches the benefit of the doubt until it becomes to systemic to ignore.

Well I think that's not entirely unreasonable, though this year I don't know that he's striking the right balance this year.
hack is online now   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 24th, 2017, 06:12 PM   #278
Hannibal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,420
Brian's default position is that blaming the coaches for anything is stupid and irrational..
Hannibal is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 25th, 2017, 12:06 AM   #279
WM Wolverine
Senior Member
 
WM Wolverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 8,557
When it's obvious the player making the mistake.
WM Wolverine is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Old November 26th, 2017, 09:21 AM   #280
Hannibal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 7,420
Quote:
Originally Posted by WM Wolverine View Post
When it's obvious the player making the mistake.
If only there was somebody whose job it was to recruit the players and then coach them to not make those mistakes...
Hannibal is offline   Reply With Quote Top
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
All logos and trademarks in this site are property of their respective owners. The comments are property of their posters, all the rest © DetroitLionsForum.com.
This site is a non-profit fan site and IS NOT affiliated with the NFL or Detroit Lions or any other sports team. Please visit the official site of the Detroit Lions for official information on the Lions.